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deja vu

UnknownUnknown
in MTT Strategy
Ive seen this hand somewhere before on here...

Poker Stars, $5 + $0.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 400/800 Blinds, 100 Ante, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP1: 23,714
MP2: 48,196
CO: 28,219
Hero (BTN): 21,440
SB: 16,768
BB: 30,215
UTG: 9,786
UTG+1: 14,479
UTG+2: 11,700

Pre-Flop: (2,100) Qdiamondnormal.gif Kdiamondnormal.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
6 folds, Hero raises to 1,680, SB raises to 16,668 and is All-In, BB folds, Hero ??????????


Villian has to be shoving 19% for this to be break even (he NEVER is), but are we calling anyways because of pot odds?

Comments

  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    FIST PUMP SNAP.........................................
    yoda........go shove your stove up your ass!
  • UnknownUnknown
    lulz...im all about the call...just arguments about shovers range
  • UnknownUnknown
    can we talk about villians range here with 20~ beibers ??

    22+ A9s+ ATo+ = we are still behind....
  • UnknownUnknown
    costanza wrote: »
    can we talk about villians range here with 20~ beibers ??

    22+ A9s+ ATo+ = we are still behind....
    poker stove does not tell us whether we should call or not...it tells us our hand equity ....you still have to factor in the price you get on your call.

    pot odds vs. hand equity = call or fold.
  • DataMnDataMn
    We need to have a winning % of 42.778 to make calling a +EV play.

    Break even for Villan range is 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KQo (top 11.5% of hands)

    If you think they would shove with anything outside of this range, then call away.

    (PS - I would definitely snap call).
  • UnknownUnknown
    DataMn wrote: »
    If you think they would shove with anything outside of this range, then call away.
    theres a difference here tho between someone showing up with a wider hand here and there and this person shoving that wide every time....


    for example for 97s to be in his range..he has to be the kind of person that says..." oh ya 97s is a shove there for sure!"

    so QTs is not fully in this villains range...because as a random he absolutely doesn't shove it every time.
  • reibsreibs
    darbday wrote: »
    theres a difference here tho between someone showing up with a wider hand here and there and this person shoving that wide every time....


    for example for 97s to be in his range..he has to be the kind of person that says..." oh ya 97s is a shove there for sure!"

    so QTs is not fully in this villains range...because as a random he absolutely doesn't shove it every time.

    yes this^ and I think random villians show up with low pairs before suited broadways and KQo.
  • VekkedVekked
    costanza wrote: »
    can we talk about villians range here with 20~ beibers ??

    22+ A9s+ ATo+ = we are still behind....

    yea if you make a range that is composed of only hands that are ahead of you you're going to be behind, lol, it's pretty absurd that they're shoving 22 and not KQ though. Make sure your ranges are logical overall, like I doubt there's someone shoving ATs and not KQs, or A9s and not KJs, and if they're shoving those they're shoving at least 55. If they're shoving 22, chances are they're shoving more non-pairs as well. Yes some people value aces or pairs more than other hands, but other people value broadways/high cards more than other hands too. In general when I construct a range if I think A9s is in his range, I'm going to try and think of what pairs or what broadways I think are roughly equivalent to the value of A9s and include those too. That was you don't have range that are like (A2+,KQ,66+) that make very little sense.
  • jdAA88jdAA88
    nice explanation Vekked, I need to work on my range assigning and think about all that stuff more.
  • UnknownUnknown
    DataMn wrote: »
    We need to have a winning % of 42.778 to make calling a +EV play.

    Break even for Villan range is 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KQo (top 11.5% of hands)

    If you think they would shove with anything outside of this range, then call away.

    (PS - I would definitely snap call).

    Ok thanx data.. I was really hoping for input on villians range, thats sorta what I thought, its even a little lighter than I thought.
    Vekked wrote: »
    yea if you make a range that is composed of only hands that are ahead of you you're going to be behind, lol, it's pretty absurd that they're shoving 22 and not KQ though. Make sure your ranges are logical overall, like I doubt there's someone shoving ATs and not KQs, or A9s and not KJs, and if they're shoving those they're shoving at least 55. If they're shoving 22, chances are they're shoving more non-pairs as well. Yes some people value aces or pairs more than other hands, but other people value broadways/high cards more than other hands too. In general when I construct a range if I think A9s is in his range, I'm going to try and think of what pairs or what broadways I think are roughly equivalent to the value of A9s and include those too. That was you don't have range that are like (A2+,KQ,66+) that make very little sense.

    Yeah, when I stoved it, I gave not just the hand villain showed up with, but just hands that I thought were reasonable enough to shove if I were in his shoes, I wasn't purposely trying to input a range I was behind lol

    I never think villain is shoving a weak ace here, i honestly think the bottom of his range to my open is like A8s and even that's close because I wasn't especially aggro in this tourney.

    However, when we are looking at hands like this, what sort of range can we assume villian is getting it in with? I like datamn's range but is even that close?

    It seems that no matter how much I stove this hand, I can't justify a call, even though I know im getting the right price, because it seems like we are always behind villians range some how. :-\

    Maybe im thinking about it to much or im not thinking the right things, but if this is a leak of mine I need to plug it asap
  • VekkedVekked
    it doesn't matter if you're behind someone's range if you're getting the right pot odds. Do you fold getting 2:1 with JTs even if we only have 40% vs. someone's range? No.

    I wasn't saying you were intentionally trying to put in only hands that beat you, but you can't leave out hands that are roughly equivalent. Do you think there's a person out there that's shoving A9s and ATo and 22 but not folding KQs (not to mention KJs, QJs, KQo)? Probably not, but that's what your range is saying.

    Just make sure that your ranges are balanced between hands that all have the same relative strength as far as pairs/broadways/aces and your ranges will be more accurate/make more sense.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    it doesn't matter if you're behind someone's range if you're getting the right pot odds. Do you fold getting 2:1 with JTs even if we only have 40% vs. someone's range? No.

    I wasn't saying you were intentionally trying to put in only hands that beat you, but you can't leave out hands that are roughly equivalent. Do you think there's a person out there that's shoving A9s and ATo and 22 but not folding KQs (not to mention KJs, QJs, KQo)? Probably not, but that's what your range is saying.

    Just make sure that your ranges are balanced between hands that all have the same relative strength as far as pairs/broadways/aces and your ranges will be more accurate/make more sense.

    alright sweet, thanx brotha.. I def need to work on this.

    side note thread derail, glgl this weekend man, cant wait to hear what you've done this time :D

    no pressure or anything, but im expecting a ship tbh
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