checkraising mediocre top pair hands

Richard~

What are the pros and cons of this move. If I flat pre, which lines can I take post and if flatting and reevaluation turn always the best move? Villain has recently moved to our table so no real reads

PokerStars Hand #76975593368: Tournament #526944895, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX (625/1250) - 2012/03/10 22:43:53 CET [2012/03/10 16:43:53 ET]
Table '526944895 48' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: RuPrettygirl (87271 in chips)
Seat 2: WillCrofton (37487 in chips)
Seat 3: IRichardI (30154 in chips)
Seat 5: Aussie_star1 (19687 in chips)
Seat 6: elmagicgato (17322 in chips)
Seat 7: Fontanive (64637 in chips)
Seat 8: Litek7 (19339 in chips)
Seat 9: balazspeter (10350 in chips)
RuPrettygirl: posts the ante 150
WillCrofton: posts the ante 150
IRichardI: posts the ante 150
Aussie_star1: posts the ante 150
elmagicgato: posts the ante 150
Fontanive: posts the ante 150
Litek7: posts the ante 150
balazspeter: posts the ante 150
WillCrofton: posts small blind 625
IRichardI: posts big blind 1250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IRichardI [:jc :qd]
Aussie_star1: folds
elmagicgato: folds
Fontanive: raises 1562 to 2812
Litek7: folds
balazspeter: folds
RuPrettygirl: folds
WillCrofton: folds
IRichardI: calls 1562
*** FLOP *** [:5s :qh :10d]
IRichardI: checks
Fontanive: bets 4245
IRichardI: raises 5755 to 10000

eeetee2011

Depends on a number of things i think stack sizes are probably the most important thing then board texture if it is a dry board you can tend to call more often as pot control and bluff catching but on a wetter board a c/r can be better since you dont want to give free cards. In this example i would probably call and see what happens on the turn as i dont like c/r 1/3 of my stack then folding or really calling off the rest with just QJ here

GTA Poker

I see no value in c/r this spot

Richard~

not even if it lets me rep a bluff?

Vekked

switch villain to the button or cut-off and I dig it, but I don't think it's correct to flat pre without reads here because now you aren't really sure where you stand relatively to his range... can you c/r for value? are you way ahead of his betting range or barely ahead?

Richard~

dunno, I got him to shove no pair no draw with A6ss and I felted him np. I've done it a few times deep and I generally havn't gotten in trouble for it. I know I myself feel quite picked on when someone clicks it back to me like this so I that's why I wanted to hear some thoughts

Vekked

results oriented tho

Richard~

I prefer the notion empirical evidence for this one

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

dunno, I got him to shove no pair no draw with A6ss and I felted him np. I've done it a few times deep and I generally havn't gotten in trouble for it. I know I myself feel quite picked on when someone clicks it back to me like this so I that's why I wanted to hear some thoughts

My thoughts are you are forcing yourself to call vs his better hands when you can call and evaluate...

however if you say you don't do it often and it was a soul read/jedi mind trick then i'll batman you up on that one

Richard~

I think I simply accepted the fact that I'd station it up and lose most of my stack if he wanted to maintain aggression with better hands on later streets if I didn't raise. So in a way I had already decided to felt myself since everybody bluffs these days

Unknown

...

Richard~

I mean really, how can this be results oriented? Him shoving no pair no draw here means that I can get villain to shove a % of his air range as well as most value hands and thin value hands like 88 and K10 and semibluff hands like KJ and AJ. fwitw I just did this almost exact thing to a supernova at the poker club yesterday, I called out of the BB with A10, flop comes A62 rainbow, check bet small raise he shoves I call he has 97o

betrthanphil

fold pre to start. It is ok to check raise with top pair sometimes but I like it on boards where its hard to have anything. Like q23 or something. Its something I do very rarely but the situation does arise.

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

I mean really, how can this be results oriented? Him shoving no pair no draw here means that I can get villain to shove a % of his air range as well as most value hands and thin value hands like 88 and K10 and semibluff hands like KJ and AJ. fwitw I just did this almost exact thing to a supernova at the poker club yesterday, I called out of the BB with A10, flop comes A62 rainbow, check bet small raise he shoves I call he has 97o

It's results oriented because you're judging the value of the play purely by the results... I don't think most players are raising worse than QJo (yes they might open suited connectors, but no worse off suit Qx or Jx) in this position, so why are you defending a hand that's behind his range?

Even if someone is opening 15% here and slamming their entire range you probably only have ~60% equity. So vs. a complete spazz postflop you get it in with 60% equity, and vs. someone reasonable you get it in with like 35-40% equity. You pretty much need 50% of players to be brain dead and shoving with zero equity hands with no pair/no draw. Sure there's going to be a certain % of players like that, maybe as much as 20-25% but that's not going to be enough to make the player profitable.

If you did this with KQ/AQ, you're getting it in with like 65-70% equity vs. brain deads and maybe ~55-60% equity vs. reasonable players.

Richard~

I'm not defending the preflop flat, I was just bored and felt like playing a hand. Your percentages feel a bit taken out of thin air,or at least I can't confirm them, I'll have to look into it a bit myself. but are you implying that people who are not braindead and better regs will fold vs smallish flopraises more frequently vs a player who hasn't abused them in that spot before?

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

I'm not defending the preflop flat, I was just bored and felt like playing a hand. Your percentages feel a bit taken out of thin air,or at least I can't confirm them, I'll have to look into it a bit myself. but are you implying that people who are not braindead and better regs will fold vs smallish flopraises more frequently vs a player who hasn't abused them in that spot before?

...they're not taken out of thin air, I used pokerstove and estimated getting it in ranges. Vs. brain deads I used their entire opening range, and vs. reasonable players I had them only shoving gut shots or better on this board. The fact is you just can't magically show a huge profit by calling with a hand that's behind someone's opening range with shorter stacks, no matter how you play post flop.

I'm implying both that people who are not braindead will fold more often, and that when they get it in it will be with better equity, most of the time. Obviously there are exceptions in both cases.

EDIT: Like I said, I don't mind the play at all, but it you can't just ignore pre-flop decisions and isolate post flop. For this type of play to show much of a profit it's crucial that your range of top pairs is at least equal or ahead of his range of top pairs. The fact that he has every combo of KQo and AQo and basically no combo's of QTo or worse is not good for your equity, even when you hit a good flop.

Richard~

Vekked wrote: »

EDIT: Like I said, I don't mind the play at all, but it you can't just ignore pre-flop decisions and isolate post flop. For this type of play to show much of a profit it's crucial that your range of top pairs is at least equal or ahead of his range of top pairs. The fact that he has every combo of KQo and AQo and basically no combo's of QTo or worse is not good for your equity, even when you hit a good flop.

as I said, I won't defend my preflop decision here at all, I regretted it pretty much as soon as I saw the flop since there's really no way I can be comfortable stacking getting stacks in so I'm more or less just guessing.

That said one major problem that I think I havn't put enough work into concerning my game is how peoples opening ranges actually look like. with no more than tops a few 100 hands on villains in decent sized mtts it's really hard to get an accurate understanding of how they think about situations and you have to make so many assumptions. there are guys I feel will 3bet me light every fucking time I open (even though they probably don't) and too often when I see someone 3bet the button in a good spot I'll be like "hah, I can jam my A5s or 66 now for 30 bigs". Spots in which I think I shove a bit too frequently for my own good simply cause I havn't put down enough work on them.

You'll sit there for 20 hands not getting the chance to play anything and suddenly your KJs from the SB looks like the nuts vs a HJ open even tho he's running like 17/9 with a 16% rfi or something. I think I could get a lot better if I put more work into actually learning poker more but right now I'm just so so so much better at finding reasons to call than reasons to fold