thought....
Seeing vekked's 200NL hand made me think a lot, more than I have in awhile haha so decided to play a couple tables today. This hand made me think a lot possibly more than I should have, however want to see what people think here.
Not much history. 28/28/8 through 25 hands so really nothing to go by.
Well here it is. Make comments on any street.
PokerStars Hand #75135169658: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2 USD) - 2012/02/06 13:29:04 ET
Table 'Gotha X' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: BetrThanPhil ($260.23 in chips)
Seat 2: Kybard1 ($209 in chips)
Seat 3: KingXXLeo ($170.18 in chips)
Seat 4: ManOnHorse ($200 in chips)
Seat 5: PSÄ! ($215.55 in chips)
Seat 6: EluSiveMark ($238.20 in chips)
EluSiveMark: posts small blind $1
BetrThanPhil: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [9h 9d]
Kybard1: folds
KingXXLeo: folds
ManOnHorse: folds
PSÄ!: raises $3 to $5
EluSiveMark: folds
BetrThanPhil: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [7d 6c 8c]
BetrThanPhil: bets $8
PSÄ!: raises $20 to $28
BetrThanPhil: calls $20
*** TURN *** [7d 6c 8c] [Qh]
BetrThanPhil: checks
PSÄ!: bets $43
BetrThanPhil: calls $43
*** RIVER *** [7d 6c 8c Qh] [Js]
BetrThanPhil: checks
PSÄ!: bets $139.55 and is all-in
BetrThanPhil: ?
Not much history. 28/28/8 through 25 hands so really nothing to go by.
Well here it is. Make comments on any street.
PokerStars Hand #75135169658: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2 USD) - 2012/02/06 13:29:04 ET
Table 'Gotha X' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: BetrThanPhil ($260.23 in chips)
Seat 2: Kybard1 ($209 in chips)
Seat 3: KingXXLeo ($170.18 in chips)
Seat 4: ManOnHorse ($200 in chips)
Seat 5: PSÄ! ($215.55 in chips)
Seat 6: EluSiveMark ($238.20 in chips)
EluSiveMark: posts small blind $1
BetrThanPhil: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [9h 9d]
Kybard1: folds
KingXXLeo: folds
ManOnHorse: folds
PSÄ!: raises $3 to $5
EluSiveMark: folds
BetrThanPhil: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [7d 6c 8c]
BetrThanPhil: bets $8
PSÄ!: raises $20 to $28
BetrThanPhil: calls $20
*** TURN *** [7d 6c 8c] [Qh]
BetrThanPhil: checks
PSÄ!: bets $43
BetrThanPhil: calls $43
*** RIVER *** [7d 6c 8c Qh] [Js]
BetrThanPhil: checks
PSÄ!: bets $139.55 and is all-in
BetrThanPhil: ?
Comments
I would have 3bet pre. As played I c/r flop
I would c/f turn. His sizing looks like he'll be jamming for value/bluffs and c/c puts you in a tough spot on almost all rivers.
Your hand is behind a reasonable % of the time given action and so many rivers are headaches for you.
As played c/f riv
28/28/8
VPIP/PFR/AF
28/28/8 is not a nit.
Nits are something like 12/7/.4
Based on the tiny 25 sample size I'd say he's loose and aggressive and he never limps.
It's certainly possible he's a nit but our data indicates otherwise.
Ummm... read Scotty's statement again.
Hint: Throwing out means the same as "getting rid of".
Why get into meta gaming with no specific read on op playing full ring? Just way too many easier ways to make profit... Now I may be way off since I don't play this high online but it's my view any ways. Please tear me apart..
we think alike lol
...The way you played it though the rest of the way I would personally c/r the turn and want a flat or fold and fold to a push here. This would give you the advantage in the hand force him to make a tough decision.
Not at these stakes, on this board, thats suicide
With that said I think donk leading this hand on this board is a sweet line to take vs. a lot of people and you can often go for 3-streets on a lot of run outs that don't come 2 overs, but it's better to find out if they're going to check back 8x/7x/6x to start donk leading, because if they do c-bet those hands c/r here will own them so much harder.
Buuut, as played if I decide to donk lead I'm 3-betting flop ~1 million % of the time, ESPECIALLY when we have no club ourselves because we're just going to get fucked up 30% of the time when one comes whether he has a flush or not. If it was a rainbow board it's probably closer to a donk/flat because it's a lot more likely they're raising you with something legit. With the FD it's just so unlikely you have any less than 40% vs. his get it in range (probably more like 45%), and there's going to be a lot of run outs that really make your hand difficult to play OOP. Just look at this run out, where every possible draw missed, no ace came (which improves one of the most likely flush draws he raises on the flop, he might flat K/Q high FDs some %), and we still have a really tough decision.
I'm not sure I agree with Scotty about c/f turn or not. It could very well be a c/f, but I don't think that his sizing is particularly strong, and I don't expect him to really use any other sizing. He went 43 into 67, which is maybe even a bit on the small side or about standard. If I had to read into his sizing at all, I'd think that he's maybe going 43 instead of like 52 to give himself a bit more fold equity on a river shove, and he might tend to go bigger with his value hands given how many cards kill his hand or his action on the river. I think that it's definitely reasonable to call turn/soul read river.
I really can't say what's best on the river as played, it's pretty tough with so little information, which is another reason why I'd rather 3-bet the flop than play 2 streets OOP in the dark. I'd be tempted to look him up because I think he still has a few club combo's that bricked that play like this, and he can turn some flop combo draws into bluffs, not to mention stuff like K4s/A4s that he might do this with, etc. I just feel like the Q and J are bricks but it's a decent run out for him to 3-barrel, and I kind of doubt he goes to town like this with many better 1 pairs for value, and there's a lot of stuff he'd raise for value on the flop that slows down on the turn and/or river. Not to mention people just love spazzing vs. donk bets.
thanks for taking the time to answer my question i am always up for learning different ways to view hands.
I def think donk betting's a valid line, but I think that if someone c-bets too much (hands that should be pot controlling vs. good players) check/raising owns them a lot more, because they might c-bet like 7x, then feel like they have to call your check-raise because of the draws and stuff, and then just end up losing the pot somehow 80% of the time.
I think if you were deeper I'd like a flat/outplay line quite a bit, especially with blockers to the nizz, but just barely over 100BB deep you're pretty limited in that respect and I think it's just a spot you have to stack and realize your equity on the flop when even "better" hands like any 2 pair are exactly 50% equity. You're only losing to sets and straight, and you have 30%+ even then (except for T9, which is super rare obv).
anyways I eventually called and he had K9 with the 9c. Really didn't expect to see that weak of a draw played so strongly. But wasn't convinced whether it was a good call or not. Still not really. Here it turned out ok but long turn would it have been the right situation to hero call.
Well, let's begin with preflop. Your opponent is raising for late position and despite the lack of info we can assume he will do that with a lot of hands. A reraise can win the pot immediately. Your hand is strong and it plays well post flop. You always have at least a pair of nines. Contrast that with a high card hand wihch will have high card ace or king 60% of the time after the flop.
There are arguments for flatting. It would be too light to stack off pre typically with 99, even in aggro short handed games (but if the game gets aggressive enough, or if you are shorter, stacking off becomes more sensible and at times mandatory) so raising opens the door and gives your opponent a chance to bet you off your equity. You will also face some difficult post flop decisions out of position so there is merit in keeping the pot small.
On the flop you have a very deep SPR situation and you are OOP. This is a RECIPE for disaster. I think c/c should also be considered. I am loathe to ever endorse passive play especially with hand that is very likely to have the best hand and the best draw. It's important to not let our analysis of the flop be coloured by our knowledge of post flop decisions.
Front betting can be an important weapon in a short handed game. When you check raise you have to risk a sizable amount of your stack and risk committing yourself with marginal holdings (or not fighting aggressively enough for pots, conversely) so leading into the raiser with a nice range of marginal holdings, draws and monsters can increase your red line and will also establish clearly that you will not play weakly and passively vs regs. This can be a GTO strategy which is important when playing vs great or WC opponents.
Even thinking like that, you still have to look at his ranges. Someone who raises every button isnt really on the tight side, so I give him a little more credit to be able to pull the 3 barrel bluff.
So your thinking here is you induced him to 3 barrel his entire range....and that range is giant ???
This is honestly a really really sick spot lol. I know you said you don't like 3betting the flop because you'd prefer room to outplay but imo it's gonna be tough while OOP when he's putting so much pressure on you.
What, read the whole thread not just one comment lol
I know I just thought I could rep so much including the flush, but I think 3 betting this board might be better givin stack sizes now.
???
he raises on the button with a giant range vs a non 6max player in the blinds.
he auto raises your donk because I agree with ET thats a std raise vs a lot of donk bets?
then he cbets the turn which he'll prob do with his entire range...
then he shoves the river with all value hands and all hands that missed?
isn't this what you are saying?
yea this is a board you should be leading 2 pair+ a lot vs. most "good" players. Many people check back any hands that don't hit a draw or strong 2 pair on coordinated boards (any hands that can't call a check raise), which is generally a good strategy because if you have 2nd pair and it's actually doing well vs. his check-raising range, so you don't want to bet/fold to check-raise, but bet/calling a raise becomes really tough to do because they're going to crush the board a lot of times as well. So a lot of players recognize it's best to pot control a lot of hands, and not c-bet things like AK which have a lot of equity going into the turn. Therefore donk betting is a good strategy to combat this so they can't pot control.
So I think donk betting a board this coordinated is generally really strong and a good play, but if you recognize that someone IS betting 7x and AK and hands they should be checking back on this board, check-raising becomes a lot better. Just depends on reads.