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UnknownUnknown
in MTT Strategy
Std. shove? Is min raise call shorty's an option? Big stacks are reg's but not good enough to re-shove a wide range. Ever folding? I haven't put this in an ICM calc but I imagine a9s is a fold

Poker Stars, $7.34 + $0.66 NL Hold'em Tournament, 1,000/2,000 Blinds, 200 Ante, 9 Players

UTG+2: 49,221
MP1: 12,842
MP2: 43,016
CO: 13,187
BTN: 7,369
SB: 66,414
BB: 22,948
JodaB. (UTG): 30,868
UTG+1: 24,135

Pre-Flop: (4,800) Theartnormal.gif Aheartnormal.gif dealt to JodaB. (UTG)
JodaB ???

Comments

  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    Std. shove? Is min raise call shorty's an option? Big stacks are reg's but not good enough to re-shove a wide range. Ever folding? I haven't put this in an ICM calc but I imagine a9s is a fold

    Poker Stars, $7.34 + $0.66 NL Hold'em Tournament, 1,000/2,000 Blinds, 200 Ante, 9 Players

    UTG+2: 49,221
    MP1: 12,842
    MP2: 43,016
    CO: 13,187
    BTN: 7,369
    SB: 66,414
    BB: 22,948
    JodaB. (UTG): 30,868
    UTG+1: 24,135

    Pre-Flop: (4,800) Theartnormal.gif Aheartnormal.gif dealt to JodaB. (UTG)
    JodaB ???

    I doubt this is an ICM shove given stack sizes. Personally, without doing the math I would 2.1x and call a short shove. I can't min raise cuz I'm not cool enough.

    It would also depend a bit on table dynamics but I'm not sure if you know that much mass tabling.
  • UnknownUnknown
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I doubt this is an ICM shove given stack sizes. Personally, without doing the math I would 2.1x and call a short shove. I can't min raise cuz I'm not cool enough.
    now this range is not adjusted or necessarily correct but its the icm with a 180 man payout

    HoldemResources.net: Beta ICM Nash Calculator

    Attachment not found.

    GTA Poker wrote: »
    It would also depend a bit on table dynamics but I'm not sure if you know that much mass tabling.
    I am table dynamics
  • VekkedVekked
    rape it in
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    I didn't see the antes...I assume this is always a push/fold spot?
  • UnknownUnknown
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I didn't see the antes.
    but its the ft ???
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I assume this is always a push/fold spot?
    yes....but....looking at the stack sizes and with the players that were here, its going to be close to optimal to raise fold to the big stacks and just call the shorty's.

    I might need more chips and slightly different stack sizes...but i think its close since nobody will widen there range when I min raise, and the big stacks are only going to re-shove a range that dominates us
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    but its the ft ???


    yes....but....looking at the stack sizes and with the players that were here, its going to be close to optimal to raise fold to the big stacks and just call the shorty's.

    I might need more chips and slightly different stack sizes...but i think its close since nobody will widen there range when I min raise, and the big stacks are only going to re-shove a range that dominates us

    That's was my first thought but aren't we giving up too large a %age of our stack by r/folding?

    You would have to do the math by assigning a range to the large stacks that would shove on you and how frequently they would be dealt those hands and what you lose by r/f vs how often you steal then blinds and antes vs what you perceive as a shorty's reshove range and how you do against it when you call.
  • UnknownUnknown
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    That's was my first thought but aren't we giving up too large a %age of our stack by r/folding?
    In short yes, and in general yes, but i think its almost a question here because we have AT and the bigstack reshove ranges are AJs+ TT+ and never KQ. So we don't get the normal odds to call a 3bet shove because here AT is uber dominated not just beat by his range, the cards they reshove are bad for our specific hand....


    And that min raising utg look really strong here so everyone ranges are maximally tight
  • VekkedVekked
    r/f could be fine fo sho, in a vacuum it's a shove just from the HH
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    In short yes, and in general yes, but i think its almost a question here because we have AT and the bigstack reshove ranges are AJs+ TT+ and never KQ. So we don't get the normal odds to call a 3bet shove because here AT is uber dominated not just beat by his range, the cards they reshove are bad for our specific hand....


    And that min raising utg look really strong here so everyone ranges are maximally tight

    I don't play MTTS, but I am friends with a MTT pro and used to watch some of his online FTs.

    Is UTG raise really perceived as strength these days? When I would watch him 1-2 years ago UTG was the new steal spot and I would think that players have adjusted to UTG raises with weaker shoves today.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    In short yes, and in general yes, but i think its almost a question here because we have AT and the bigstack reshove ranges are AJs+ TT+ and never KQ. So we don't get the normal odds to call a 3bet shove because here AT is uber dominated not just beat by his range, the cards they reshove are bad for our specific hand....


    And that min raising utg look really strong here so everyone ranges are maximally tight

    I'd be interested in seeing the math on the 3 scenarios to calculate overall EV of min raising UTG, but it sounds like a large amount of work.
  • UnknownUnknown
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    Is UTG raise really perceived as strength these days?
    <^^>
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I'd be interested in seeing the math on the 3 scenarios to calculate overall EV of min raising UTG, but it sounds like a large amount of work.
    no one will ever do it, ha. actually people do it but its obv not fun. Best thing to do is to just ask a pro, keeping in mind any math done with icm is limited because icm has assumptions and approximations that make it not always correct....

    maybe this problem is easier to solve than i describe tho
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    <^^>


    no one will ever do it, ha. actually people do it but its obv not fun. Best thing to do is to just ask a pro, keeping in mind any math done with icm is limited because icm has assumptions and approximations that make it not always correct....

    maybe this problem is easier to solve than i describe tho

    give me a hand %range shove from the big stacks and a hand %range shove from the short stacks and then we can figure it out
  • UnknownUnknown
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    give me a hand %range shove from the big stacks and a hand %range shove from the short stacks and then we can figure it out

    JodaB. (UTG): 30,868

    UTG+1: 24,135 88, AJs+
    UTG+2: 49,221 TT, AJs+
    MP1: 12,842 77+, ATs+
    MP2: 43,016 TT, AJs+
    CO: 13,187 77+, ATs+
    BTN: 7,369 55+ AT+ , KJs+,
    SB: 66,414 TT, AJs+
    BB: 22,948 77 , AJs+,

    see you'd have to play around a lil. sometimes people will fold ajs. Some will re jam hands like 99 and ajo.

    the bb will flat sometimes and check fold alot with hands like kq.


    so we can argue and adjust but prob start there
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    JodaB. (UTG): 30,868

    UTG+1: 24,135 88, AJs+
    UTG+2: 49,221 TT, AJs+
    MP1: 12,842 77+, ATs+
    MP2: 43,016 TT, AJs+
    CO: 13,187 77+, ATs+
    BTN: 7,369 55+ AT+ , KJs+,
    SB: 66,414 TT, AJs+
    BB: 22,948 77 , AJs+,

    see you'd have to play around a lil. sometimes people will fold ajs. Some will re jam hands like 99 and ajo.

    the bb will flat sometimes and check fold alot with hands like kq.


    so we can argue and adjust but prob start there

    will get this done tomorrow (hopefully)
  • UnknownUnknown
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    will get this done tomorrow (hopefully)
    gl
  • Richard~Richard~
    I'd probably just fold pre if 9handed
  • VekkedVekked
    Nitchard~
  • DennisGDennisG
    I am glad there are much better players than I on here to answer these...

    From the OP I would be 2Xing and calling the shorts...it's final table, first hand...people tend to tighten the first couple hands while feeling everyone out. Granted I play more guaranteed mtt's than 180's...so possibly the dynamics are different...but still..

    I personally don't think utg raises are as strong (by regs) as they used to be.
  • VekkedVekked
    DennisG wrote: »
    I am glad there are much better players than I on here to answer these...

    From the OP I would be 2Xing and calling the shorts...it's final table, first hand...people tend to tighten the first couple hands while feeling everyone out. Granted I play more guaranteed mtt's than 180's...so possibly the dynamics are different...but still..

    I personally don't think utg raises are as strong (by regs) as they used to be.

    Really depends who the deepstacks are, I would def min/call some % as well. If the deepstacks are nitty randoms then probably min/call is best. If they're gonna be spazzing and making you fold the best hand some % of the time, then ramjam.
  • Richard~Richard~
    I don't quite understand shoving this, is it standard to play this hand because there are so many short stacks?
  • VekkedVekked
    Richard~ wrote: »
    I don't quite understand shoving this, is it standard to play this hand because there are so many short stacks?

    Basically yes. If you have 15BB but a bunch of ppl after you have 5BB it's more like you're shoving 10-12BB. Gotta kind of estimate the average of the stacks.
  • eeetee2011eeetee2011
    i just read the OP and not the rest of the thread but fold is best shoving is very bad with all the short stacks due to icm if you are going to play the hand min raise/call short stacks min raise/fold to bigger ones but folding is best
  • UnknownUnknown
    eeetee2011 wrote: »
    i just read the OP and not the rest of the thread but fold is best shoving is very bad with all the short stacks due to icm if you are going to play the hand min raise/call short stacks min raise/fold to bigger ones but folding is best
    will you follow icm here if it says shove? or will you go with your gut regardless because of the shorties?

    also do you have everyone on really tight calling ranges, because I think we can have that assumption here.
  • eeetee2011eeetee2011
    well i havent looked at the numbers but would bet money icm says not to shove but the main issue in this hand is being UTG you are just throwing 15bbs out there letting the 2 stacks that have you covered just pick you off with a premium hand thats why i thought min raising is the way to go if you want to play the hand if you think everyone is going to be really tight
  • UnknownUnknown
    eeetee2011 wrote: »
    well i havent looked at the numbers but would bet money icm says not to shove but the main issue in this hand is being UTG you are just throwing 15bbs out there letting the 2 stacks that have you covered just pick you off with a premium hand thats why i thought min raising is the way to go if you want to play the hand if you think everyone is going to be really tight
    earlier in this thread i posted a link to the hand setup in nash with the payouts. it can be adjusted like sng wiz if you haven't used it before

    and with min raise folding, if we do fold and go through the blinds...we are gonna be left with a stack that we wish maybe we just jammed and took the risk with anyways
  • eeetee2011eeetee2011
    good to know then for me Fold>>>>>>>Min raise>>Shove
  • UnknownUnknown
    thx
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