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Optimal?
Reads: i think this is going to happen
edit: can be discussed as strat too
Poker Stars, $7.34 + $0.66 NL Hold'em Tournament, 50/100 Blinds, 8 Players
UTG: 2,072
UTG+1: 3,455
MP1: 1,815
JodaB. (MP2): 1,283
CO: 1,135
BTN: 2,015
SB: 2,725
BB: 1,380
Pre-Flop: (150) 8
8
dealt to JodaB. (MP2)
UTG calls 100, UTG+1 calls 100, MP1 folds, JodaB. raises to 725, 4 folds, UTG calls 625, UTG+1 folds
Flop: (1,700) 9 K A
(2 Players)
UTG checks, JodaB. bets 558 and is All-In, UTG calls 558
Turn: (2,816) A (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
River: (2,816) T
(2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Results: 2,816 Pot
UTG showed Q 7 and LOST (-1,283 NET)
JodaB. showed 8 8 and WON 2,816 (+1,533 NET)
edit: can be discussed as strat too
Poker Stars, $7.34 + $0.66 NL Hold'em Tournament, 50/100 Blinds, 8 Players
UTG: 2,072
UTG+1: 3,455
MP1: 1,815
JodaB. (MP2): 1,283
CO: 1,135
BTN: 2,015
SB: 2,725
BB: 1,380
Pre-Flop: (150) 8
8 dealt to JodaB. (MP2)UTG calls 100, UTG+1 calls 100, MP1 folds, JodaB. raises to 725, 4 folds, UTG calls 625, UTG+1 folds
Flop: (1,700) 9
K A (2 Players)UTG checks, JodaB. bets 558 and is All-In, UTG calls 558
Turn: (2,816) A
(2 Players - 1 is All-In)River: (2,816) T
(2 Players - 1 is All-In)Results: 2,816 Pot
UTG showed Q
7 and LOST (-1,283 NET)JodaB. showed 8
8 and WON 2,816 (+1,533 NET)
Comments
i'd probably push preflop.
Is this a question you are asking or was this a misclick?
Hes limping like 70%+ im sure. If I had aces I obv would never shove just bump it up and get it in on any flop, and here i think i pretty much have aces compared to the way he plays, and he'll see a flop with almost his whole range.
I read in a husng book last night that suggested just because its +ev doesn't mean its optimal to make a small raise raise here and that maybe making a larger one is even more +ev.
So vs a player like this i think thats max value...unless he calls a shove pre ???
few players play in such a way i can do this though
The terrible play of the other is just mind boggling, did he not know you were all in, regardless of the flop ?
that is the motto of scared money imo. instead we want our opponent to call as many chips as possible with the weakest hand or range possible
Its important to me that when i identify a spewtard..his chips go to me and not someone else....no doubt this player won't make it another orbit.
optimal? aka going supoer exploitative vs bad players
(1300+1550) * x + (-1300) * (1-x) > 1650
2850x +1300x > 2950
4150x > 2950
x > 71%
We obviously doesn win 350 chips 100% of the time but if we assume we're not folding out anything that have us beat by shoving over raising or raising over shoving we can just pick any arbitrary value for the calculation since these hands will react the same way no matter how we play it
Results suggest that we need to be deeper for this to be a good idea unless we expect to fold out some hands that outflop us which I don't see happening. As for the no hope part I simply don't believe you. Just cause some things aren't instinctive to me doesn't mean you're any better with that last crappy post of yours
"why do you think it's profitable to give them a flop? just shove pre cause that's how you do it, you're overthinking it and when other people than you overthink it they sometimes mess up. Again, you shove, why must you think too much when other people might make mistakes when they do zomg"
Even though you wrote something like that it makes it clear that you have this down to instinct, I don't. But we already knew that you are better than me and OP, it just annoys me that you seem to claim that "hopeful" would imply "accepts the basics even though they don't really understand what it is based on"
There's no postflop play involved in either case. you commit both your stacks preflop and villain is just too silly to realise it, it's a question of do I want him to call with a wide range or not
Edit: This has nothing at all to do with being results oriented. the argument you try to impose at the end is just mindblowingly silly, "this is always a shove or a fold, because it is"
That said, if he calls pre with the intention of playing fit or fold we're as you would say, printing money
I think in this spot 88 is AA, and the read is he will fold his junk to a shove. No idea whats going through his mind
only this player
my sample is that in all my hands ive never attempted this, but this is why its a fun brag, i could be right, but we'll never really know
btp is right i mean this should never be more optimal but really this is a 1 in 10k hands spot. i just didn't want to say it like that because ive been experimenting a little with monsters this way vs fish...but i think this is different and takes a certain person to do it against....
if i had to take a side, id tell people don't ever do this, but i stand behind it here.
ok...Id still rather try to pick up the chips or make him call it off pre which he prob would've done anyways. I can slide my opinion a little more to your side with this detail but still will shove rather then flirt with danger lol
And darb, I showed you that in order for this to be optimal, if he's always calling postflop, we need 71% equity vs him preflop. Our 8s probably don't have that
is this the same as you were saying?
Shoving:
_% of times he folds we pick up everything
1-_% of times he calls and we flip vs his tighter calling range for 2x our stack plus dead money
random overlimper calls x% of time
trapping:
we get it in vs almost all of his initial range for 2x our stack plus dead money
random overlimper calls slightly less?
what I did was named the cutoff equity x and set it up as
(our stack + our stack + dead money in pot) * x + (-our stack (cause we'd lose it)) * (1-x)
this should be greatar than the 350 chip pickup if we shove so
our expression > our stack + 350
then I just solved for x
What this means is that unless we have 71% equity vs his calling range, we're better off just picking up the 350 chips preflop
theres no picking up 350 tho because we also have to flip vs his calling range?
but this isn't really a question of how much he folds. cause the range he's not folding, that range we're always going up against, no matter if we shove or raise
yes, but that's the only thing that's different. The range he's calling your shove with has no impact on whether or not this is optimal. The only range that's important to deduce that is the range he's folding to your shove but calling vs your raise