defending out of position vs wide ranges

Richard~

How do you think about spots like these? Shortish 30 BB stacks, good hand out of position vs a button open. How would you play this?

PokerStars Game #73279476232: Tournament #554010373, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (50/100) - 2012/01/04 19:13:23 CET [2012/01/04 13:13:23 ET]
Table '554010373 200' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: bamberg01 (5795 in chips)
Seat 2: ROQUEAGUAYRO (4783 in chips)
Seat 3: DJ83M (3968 in chips)
Seat 4: goldiemalone (4012 in chips)
Seat 5: IRichardI (3240 in chips)
Seat 6: Parjato (7396 in chips)
Seat 7: timooo755 (6112 in chips)
Seat 8: msouzanilton (5390 in chips)
Seat 9: stevieisgod (12694 in chips)
bamberg01: posts the ante 10
ROQUEAGUAYRO: posts the ante 10
DJ83M: posts the ante 10
goldiemalone: posts the ante 10
IRichardI: posts the ante 10
Parjato: posts the ante 10
timooo755: posts the ante 10
msouzanilton: posts the ante 10
stevieisgod: posts the ante 10
goldiemalone: posts small blind 50
IRichardI: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IRichardI [:kc :jh]
Parjato: folds
timooo755: folds
msouzanilton: folds
stevieisgod: folds
bamberg01: folds
ROQUEAGUAYRO: folds
DJ83M: raises 144 to 244
goldiemalone: folds
IRichardI: calls 144
*** FLOP *** [:5s :7c :6c]
IRichardI: checks
DJ83M: bets 444
IRichardI: folds
Uncalled bet (444) returned to DJ83M
DJ83M collected 628 from pot
DJ83M: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 628 | Rake 0
Board [5s 7c 6c]
Seat 1: bamberg01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ROQUEAGUAYRO folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: DJ83M (button) collected (628)
Seat 4: goldiemalone (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: IRichardI (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Parjato folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: timooo755 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: msouzanilton folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: stevieisgod folded before Flop (didn't bet)

betrthanphil

oop i like to lead these type of flops sometimes but hard to vs a button range. Not much you can do here but play how you played it lol

Vekked

I'd probably just fold here because it hits his range a lot harder than yours and it's pretty coordinated so there's a fair bit he can continue with. Maybe if one of the cards was a a 2 or T or something a bit farther away it'd be a better spot to c/r because it hits less hands for him but you can still rep a pretty wide range of value/draws.

Vekked

betrthanphil wrote: »

oop i like to lead these type of flops sometimes but hard to vs a button range. Not much you can do here but play how you played it lol

yea leading is probably cool in some of these spots, I don't do it enough tho

Unknown

what kind of a range do we defend pre with tho? and how deep do we need to be?

Vekked

darbday wrote: »

what kind of a range do we defend pre with tho? and how deep do we need to be?

depends on how wide they're opening. default is like broadways (maybe fold QTo/KTo), ATo+,A7s+,55+,65-T9s, any suited broadways. Obv you're 3-betting some of that for value. Add combo's as people get looser, mess with pokerstove to see your equities and stuff. Probably never defending/3Bing more than 50% total even vs. the loosest of ever but I guess a case could be made for it.

Richard~

65-T9 suited suprises me, you flat these from a 30 BB stack? How do you play different textures oop when defending?

Edit: does that mean you're folding A8o type hands?

Also, how does your defending range chance as effective stacks get deeper?

Vekked

Well it's hard to break down exactly how I'd play SCs on every board texture cuz they are one of the toughest types of hands to play OOP but generally I'm gonna c/r bluff a lot because they flop/turn a lot of equity and have lots of semi-bluffing power. Yea I'm folding A8o as a default, hard to play profitably OOP. Yea as stacks get deeper I defend less high card type hands and maybe a few more suited connected type hands, but I also 3b/f a bunch more whereas 30BB deep I'm 3B/fing a very tiny amount. Once you get like 200BB deep probably just playing a lot less OOP in general and flatting a lot more hands I would consider 3-betting shallower. This is all really general tho b/c obv your strategy should change drastically with every stacksize depending on who you're playing and their tendencies.

Richard~

interesting, maybe I'm not confident enough to flat with the intention of messing with villain much oop on shallow stacks but this is definitely something I'll try to get into my game a bit more. By default I've been defending any ace from the BB and probably not enough hands that are easier to play post. I think starting by shaving off a few aces and adding in some sc's in their place is a good place to start

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

interesting, maybe I'm not confident enough to flat with the intention of messing with villain much oop on shallow stacks but this is definitely something I'll try to get into my game a bit more. By default I've been defending any ace from the BB and probably not enough hands that are easier to play post. I think starting by shaving off a few aces and adding in some sc's in their place is a good place to start

Yea I mean if you're really unsure of which types of flops to play back on then def just stick to value hands/hands that are just ahead of their range and can flop good top pairs. Any ace is definitely too wide, it's way too hard to play them profitably, especially off suit ones.

Good sc's like 76s-T9s are the easiest non-value hands to play because you can just c/r whenever you have gut shot or a couple different back doors and stuff and you flop them fairly frequently. Like if you have 76s and the flop comes xx5 and the 5 is your suit you have like 10% chance of backdooring some form of the nuts even though you flopped nothing. Obviously you can't check/call with 7 high just to hit some back doors, so pick a flop like that to c/r bluff, since it's one of the best boards for you that you can't profitably c/c.

Obv that's not the only consideration, cuz if you're c/r'ing K52 rainbow vs. a good hand reader he's just going to rape you because you're repping a super thin range and probably aren't/shouldn't be balanced. If you c/r KhJh5s with 76s you can rep a much wider range of value/semi-bluffs and it's really hard to exploit without just hitting the board harder or not c-betting as much. So yea, equity + believable board texture + doesn't crush villain's range is a pretty good formula for c/r bluffing.

Richard~

gotta learn sooner or later right? if there's one thing I've learned about poker it's that common sense and sound logic gets you further than many books will

trigs

Richard~ wrote: »

gotta learn sooner or later right? if there's one thing I've learned about poker it's that common sense and sound logic gets you further than many books will

depends on your logic

Richard~

That's probably very true. As a final question, how bad would it be to 3 bet call KJo from the SB with 30 BB's? Obviously it's player dependant but still

Also, am I correct in assuming 3bet folding KJ here for the blockers is bad since it's a strong hand and the BB is not predictable enough when you 3bet him?

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

That's probably very true. As a final question, how bad would it be to 3 bet call KJo from the SB with 30 BB's? Obviously it's player dependant but still

Also, am I correct in assuming 3bet folding KJ here for the blockers is bad since it's a strong hand and the BB is not predictable enough when you 3bet him?

3B/call is probably bad, he needs to be jamming a lot of worse kings to make it good. 3b/f is probably not great because:

a) blockers matter less when opening ranges are wide. If someone's opening 10% UTG blockers kill a significant part of their value range. When someone's opening 35% on the button blockers are not nearly as significant.

b) On top of that if they're flatting some % of the time (which is reasonable given they're in position and it's a late position battle) it kind of sucks playing KJo in a 3-bet pot.

c) The most important thing is 3-betting a hand that is profitable to flat is usually bad. In the right spots you can 3-bet just about anything and show at least a small profit. If you can 3-bet the top 5% of hands for value profitably, and you can flat the next 15% of hands profitably, why would you 3-bet bluff some of those 15% of hands that you can flat profitably when you could just 3-bet bluff the next 5-10% of hands that you would otherwise fold and turn a small profit with those too. Now you can play 25-30% of hands profitably as opposed to just the top 20%.

The only reason to 3B bluff a hand you can flat profitably is if you determine 3B bluffing shows a bigger profit, but that's hard to determine and generally it's better to have distinct ranges of {3B for value} {flat for value} {3B bluff} and {fold}, with each of those ranges being hands that are slightly stronger than the hands in the next range.

EDIT: I don't know what you meant by the BB being predictable when you 3-bet him or w/e because you can't 3-bet the BB obv, lol (unless you limp)

ryanghall

betrthanphil wrote: »

oop i like to lead these type of flops sometimes but hard to vs a button range. Not much you can do here but play how you played it lol

This.