Check out the very first hand of my last sit & go

Tie Twist

I wasn't involved in this hand, but it was one of the worst beats I've ever seen - for two guys at once!

PokerStars Game #385760433: Tournament #1402459, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2004/04/13 - 20:02:09 (ET)
Table '1402459 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: aprilsfool (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: Tie Twist (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: dabbs311 (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: inmate5150 (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: CaptainMoney (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: emk3203 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: Chris Arz (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: spellie (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: loser10 (1500 in chips)
Tie Twist: posts small blind 10
dabbs311: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tie Twist [4d 9d]
inmate5150: calls 20
CaptainMoney: raises 40 to 60
emk3203: raises 140 to 200
Chris Arz: folds
spellie: folds
loser10: calls 200
aprilsfool: folds
Tie Twist: folds
dabbs311: folds
inmate5150: folds
CaptainMoney: calls 140
*** FLOP *** [Jc Qc Qd]
CaptainMoney: checks
emk3203: checks
loser10: bets 1300 and is all-in
CaptainMoney: calls 1300 and is all-in
emk3203: calls 1300 and is all-in
loser10 said, "nh"
*** TURN *** [Jc Qc Qd] [Qh]
loser10 said, "gg"
*** RIVER *** [Jc Qc Qd Qh] [Qs]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CaptainMoney: shows [8h 8d] (four of a kind, Queens)
emk3203: shows [Jd Jh] (four of a kind, Queens)
loser10: shows [Ah Js] (four of a kind, Queens - Ace kicker)
loser10 collected 4550 from pot
aprilsfool said, "oh man"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4550 | Rake 0
Board [Jc Qc Qd Qh Qs]
Seat 1: aprilsfool (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Tie Twist (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: dabbs311 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: inmate5150 folded before Flop
Seat 5: CaptainMoney showed [8h 8d] and lost with four of a kind, Queens
Seat 6: emk3203 showed [Jd Jh] and lost with four of a kind, Queens
Seat 7: Chris Arz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: spellie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: loser10 showed [Ah Js] and won (4550) with four of a kind, Queens

DJP

That is pretty freaky. I've seen some weird ones, but that takes the cake. I'd rather go down with a crushing hand, than lose to a high kicker. I've had both happen, but the first one seems less painful somehow.

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edit

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Oops, just reread thread. Forget I said that. Must be brain fade. lol

professor

:shock: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gonzo

Seems to me that 200 chips here is not a big loss when you see that flop. Does anyone else think that there should not have been very many callers to this all in bet?

I suspect at least the eights should have folded! I can understand pocket J's calling this bet but it's still not the nuts.

Either way it's a tough board to look at if you are holding anything less than an Ace.

I bet there has already been one started "but online flops/community cards" would be an interesting topic to see.

ScottyZ

I suspect at least the eights should have folded!

Yes, for sure. To put it mildly, I didn't see too many good plays in this hand.

You know what, I don't even like the JJ checking that flop. I think that pot is big enough to move your chips in and (hopefully) just pick up the pot. You don't want to get too cute this early in the tournament and let someone take off a free card to a single Q or a higher PP (though the latter is not likely based on the pre-flop play). Plus this is a great place to advertise that you are betting with the goods. I would have moved all-in and then shown my cards if everyone mucked it. Clearly, the JJ did not get a bad result here by checking as measured when the money goes in (although, it's hard to get a bad result whatever happens when you hit a flop that hard). But if you like to learn based on results this is a great (although extreme) example of why you often want to shun the +EV play (checking the JJ) in favour of the lower variance play (moving all-in) in tournaments.

With how bad the AJ played it, I assume he's calling even if the JJ moves in, so I doubt the outcome changes anyway.

My guess if that loser10 doesn't even make the money with that giant stack. 8)

ScottyZ

Hork42

I would have bluffed the fifth queen.

"alright, who's got the joker??"

hork.

Tie Twist

Actually, Loser10 finished second, to me in this one. He slowly dwindled down and was at about 2000 to my 11500 when we got heads up.

Gonzo

It's funny cause I was thinking of this hand all weekend and it killed me (and still is)

Similar situation, (minus the Quad flop). I held 8-5 suited in BB. I would normally never play this except it was one more bet to go and it was half price for me with small suited (distant) connectors. One raisor and everyone calls naturally at a small 2-5 table.

Flop comes up 9-5-5 rainbow. Straight draws maybe no flushes and all small stuff. Anything can happen at this point. I don't like me kicker here so SB checks so do I... and it goes all the way to the raisor. He bets. Gets to me I raise. He re-raises I cap. Now I know where I stand. I assume he is holding a pocket pair bigger then the board since he raised pre-flop. Two callers after me (the other 5's I assume)

At this point I have an amazing read on the board! flop comes down 8x.

I bet original raisor raises, back and forth til its capped. (other two are still calling I have no idea why, but there are helping the pot....more on this later)

Last card K. this worries me a bit incase of the KK on the other side of the table but not as much as the feeling in the pit of my stomach of pocket 9's that I was really trying to ignore. Other side bets I call (so do tweedle dumb and tweedle dummer).

Before I even turn over my cards the second the last bet is called I ask him Pocket 9's right?, "yeah, flopped the boat" Threw my 8-5 over to his side of the table and half-yelled "I knew it"

fact of the matter is I had read the board near perfect but because of huge pots and dumb callers it is very easy to not let a hand go.

Might have ventured off topic here but it felt good letting it out. thanks for listening guys....

:oops:

ScottyZ

Two callers after me (the other 5's I assume)

Are you playing with the deck with the joker in it again? If you have trip 5's, there is only one more unseen 5.

I think playing 85s is not too bad from the BB if plenty of players are in.

I think capping it on the flop is not bad, and you sort of get trapped by your hand improving on the turn. It's going to be tough to fold here since the original raiser might be doing something as simple as overplaying AA. To be honest, I'm a *lot* more worried about the 2 (or more) callers who are happily coming along through the capped flop betting.

It's also difficult to slow down on the turn when what seems like a good card for you comes off. I might just bet and call one more bet the turn, but that's easier said than done.

Checking and calling on the river seems like the right play to me. I don't think your hand is foldable, but you've certainly got to suspect you may be beat.

I don't like me kicker here so SB checks so do I... and it goes all the way to the raisor. He bets. Gets to me I raise. He re-raises I cap

I don't really understand this line of thinking. You *don't* like your kicker, so you check-raise and then cap it? I don't think capping it here is the wrong thing to do by any means, but is sounds strange to justify the "check" portion of a check-raise by saying that you don't like your hand.

ScottyZ

professor

Scotty said....

You know what, I don't even like the JJ checking that flop.

but FWIW I'll disagree. That's a fine spot for a checkraise. Only QQ or QJ have you beat at the moment, any Qx is only a 4-outer, and AA or KK
is only a 3-outer. Anything else is drawing *very* thin if not dead. Be greedy! Checkraise -- your
hand (JJ)JQQ is not that vulnerable. Sucker your
opponents into committing their whole stacks when you've got the goods.

I do agree that the all-in bet with AJ is very bad, and the over-call all-in with 88 is terrible.

I would have expected the betting to go something like this:

(T630 in pot -- each player has T1300)

FLOP: QQJ
(JJ): check
(AJ): bet ~300
(88): fold
(JJ): raise to 1300
(AJ): fold

That would have been rational. But at low limits I think we make our profits because the other players have rather weak ability at realistic risk assessment. Of course, sometimes the freaks go on
to hit runner-runner 2-outs 1-out to bust ya!

Gonzo

Yeah Joker is optional in this game. I hear Rama sometimes throws in a dueses wild game every now and then (oops! ha ha ha, NOT)

my main thoughts were the guy opposite me (high pair). The flop checked all the way round to him so I suspected no fives. He bet every one else calls. Right here I'm thinking he has overpair and the others draws or something. then I raise.... the two guys to my left between me and the bettor call, bettor re-raises. Here I'm thinking exactly what you thought... overplaying a high pair, and the other two guys are dumb and dumber (one five and who knows what else, maybe the nine right). Now I have a great deal of info to work with.

Turn card makes my hand, but my mind is on the overpairs, the other two become merely contributors to the pot. This is where I start thinking 9's

thats the gist of it. The capping was merely for more info. if he did have over pair and the others the five or draws I was assured once that cheaper betting round was over. after the turn with the big bets was the problem. I'd much rather seen an A drop or some suited cards or another nine. Something to allow me to throw my cards away.

tought hand for sure though!

ScottyZ

I would have expected the betting to go something like this:

(T630 in pot -- each player has T1300)

FLOP: QQJ
(JJ): check
(AJ): bet ~300
(88): fold
(JJ): raise to 1300
(AJ): fold

That's maybe how it will go with better players. Although, I'm not sure I'd push 300 chips out there with the AJ myself.

That's a fine spot for a checkraise.

Okay, you got me. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd push all-in with the JJ, but I doctored my reasoning quite a bit. I'd push in simply because I'd expect to get called by weaker hands a good percentage of the time.

It's hand #1 in a low limit tournament.

At any (even slightly) higher competitiveness level (including being further into the exact same tournament), I'd ceratinly check it as you suggested, and for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I'd probably also just call if there was a flop bet.

ScottyZ

professor

Righto. Just goes to show that the play in these sit-n-go tourneys is a lot different than what you'd expect in even, say, one of the tourneys like we used to have last year. If you expect a caller then the all-in move is of course good.

stpboy

I had a hand similar to that at Sloth's house. NL Hold em' 2/4 cash game. Late position player M raises $15.00, I reluctantly call after him with 66 thinking that I will see the flop and get out. I hadn't had any cards all night so thought I might as well play when i get something reasonable. Flop comes down (10, 10, 6) Player M bets $30 I raise all in for a total of $67 (raise of $37). Player M mulls it over for awhile and reluctantly calls me with QQ, sees my cards flopped over and says "nice hand". Turn comes (10). River didnt help me to say the least. Lost the pot to (10, 10, 10, Q, Q) over my (10, 10, 10, 6, 6). What can you do? It was the bad beat of the night, lol. Im over it now...damn you player M!! lol.

stp

ScottyZ

Yes, you do have to modify your play a *lot* in these sorts of tournaments, especially in the early rounds. I normally find that overly straightforward plays work the best. (e.g. massive overbets with the nuts)

One way to summarize many players at the low limits (tournaments, and to some extent cash games) is

1. They make too many fancy plays.

2. They assume too often that you are making a fancy play.

I think that a lot of new players are getting caught up in all these fancy plays that they are seeing the pros on TV make at the final table of a tournament.

I guess we can see here that you are going to get at least one call from the 88 if you push in. Fancy! 8)

ScottyZ

Gonzo

Scotty, Awesome Comment!

I think that a lot of new players are getting caught up in all these fancy plays that they are seeing the pros on TV make at the final table of a tournament.

I couldn't agree more. I got into a "heated" discussion a while back when someone actually thought that these televised events were real time????

I said no way, he was dealt these hands four times in a row? and pro's make moves at every pot? Come on.....

the shuffle time alone, not to mention the button was moved out of order etc. leads me to believe that these were edited. (my polite rebuttal)

So my point is, yes all these new players see are the fancy moves so they think they happen every hand.... Bad rep for the game!

ScottyZ

I'm pretty sure the WPT coverage (and pretty much any poker coverage on TV) is edited. This is easily verified by paying close attention to where the button is or what the stack sizes are, like Gonzo mentioned.

At times, I think the WPT in particular is actually a little bit under-edited, in that they sometimes show a little too much "thinking". On the other hand, you don't want to motor through the hands in a TV production either, so it's a fine line I guess.

ScottyZ

SupaMuncher

Don't mean to further bifurcate the thread...but what they heck.

ScottyZ wrote:

Are you playing with the deck with the joker in it again? If you have trip 5's, there is only one more unseen 5.

LOL. You wouldn't believe how many times I reread the original post to make sure I didn't miss something.

ScottyZ wrote:

I think capping it on the flop is not bad, and you sort of get trapped by your hand improving on the turn. It's going to be tough to fold here since the original raiser might be doing something as simple as overplaying AA. To be honest, I'm a *lot* more worried about the 2 (or more) callers who are happily coming along through the capped flop betting.

Y'know, with a flop like 955, I can see a lot of weaker players calling a hella lotta bets with 76s (or even 76o, if it's that kinda day). I betcha they're thinking they'd be good if they hit their miracle inside straight draw, and "the pot's so big!" So I bet that's what generated a ton of action when the 8 hit. Or such is my guess.

giggles

stpboy wrote:

I had a hand similar to that at Sloth's house. ... What can you do? It was the bad beat of the night, lol. Im over it now...damn you player M!! lol.
stp

:oops: Sorry about that. Come by sometime. You can't always be unlucky.

stpboy

Yes, i am thinking about trying my luck this Friday if the tourny is off.

stp

Jay

That's crazy. The odds of that occurring are like astronomical!!