3 bet pot on different textures

Richard~

Cbet or not to cbet? Here's what I did in two spots of my evening session. how would you play it and why (assuming you 3 bet)?

PokerStars Game #70977060413: Tournament #548010512, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2011/11/22 23:17:01 CET [2011/11/22 17:17:01 ET]
Table '548010512 367' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Akromax (73011 in chips)
Seat 2: cluzzi (29794 in chips)
Seat 4: MHABER3636 (22196 in chips)
Seat 5: as4trebol (7073 in chips)
Seat 6: IRichardI (37366 in chips)
Seat 7: Kybard1 (11084 in chips)
Seat 8: kamilpudelko (15454 in chips)
Seat 9: wizowizo (24560 in chips)
Akromax: posts the ante 50
cluzzi: posts the ante 50
MHABER3636: posts the ante 50
as4trebol: posts the ante 50
IRichardI: posts the ante 50
Kybard1: posts the ante 50
kamilpudelko: posts the ante 50
wizowizo: posts the ante 50
kamilpudelko: posts small blind 300
wizowizo: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IRichardI [:jc :10c]
Akromax: raises 600 to 1200
cluzzi: folds
MHABER3636: folds
OshriAK is connected
as4trebol: folds
IRichardI: raises 2200 to 3400
Kybard1: folds
kamilpudelko: folds
wizowizo: folds
Akromax: calls 2200
*** FLOP *** [:10d :as :3d]
Akromax: checks
IRichardI: bets 4400
Akromax: folds
Uncalled bet (4400) returned to IRichardI
IRichardI collected 8100 from pot
IRichardI: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8100 | Rake 0
Board
Seat 1: Akromax folded on the Flop
Seat 2: cluzzi folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: MHABER3636 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: as4trebol folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: IRichardI collected (8100)
Seat 7: Kybard1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: kamilpudelko (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: wizowizo (big blind) folded before Flop

---

PokerStars Game #70977065505: Tournament #548010492, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (500/1000) - 2011/11/22 23:17:07 CET [2011/11/22 17:17:07 ET]
Table '548010492 332' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: veryvital (59916 in chips)
Seat 2: IRichardI (72560 in chips)
Seat 3: pawse1971 (10326 in chips)
Seat 4: edwin658 (28420 in chips)
Seat 5: Psykoman2008 (16136 in chips)
Seat 6: robbiekeegan (26341 in chips)
Seat 7: Siebren-K. (3908 in chips)
Seat 8: myles.180 (36886 in chips)
Seat 9: AchunA (41123 in chips)
veryvital: posts the ante 125
IRichardI: posts the ante 125
pawse1971: posts the ante 125
edwin658: posts the ante 125
Psykoman2008: posts the ante 125
robbiekeegan: posts the ante 125
Siebren-K.: posts the ante 125
myles.180: posts the ante 125
AchunA: posts the ante 125
IRichardI: posts small blind 500
pawse1971: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IRichardI [:7c :7d]
edwin658: folds
Psykoman2008: folds
robbiekeegan: folds
Siebren-K. has timed out
Siebren-K.: folds
Siebren-K. is sitting out
Siebren-K. has returned
myles.180: calls 1000
AchunA: raises 1950 to 2950
veryvital: folds
IRichardI: raises 5250 to 8200
pawse1971: folds
myles.180: folds
AchunA: calls 5250
*** FLOP *** [:2h :jh :4c]
IRichardI: checks
AchunA: checks
*** TURN *** [:2h :jh :4c] [:8d]
IRichardI: bets 8500
AchunA: calls 8500
*** RIVER *** [:2h :jh :4c :8d] [:9d]
IRichardI: checks
AchunA: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IRichardI: shows [:7c :7d] (a pair of Sevens)
AchunA: shows [:10c :10d] (a pair of Tens)
AchunA collected 36525 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 36525 | Rake 0
Board [2h Jh 4c 8d 9d]
Seat 1: veryvital (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: IRichardI (small blind) showed [7c 7d] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 3: pawse1971 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: edwin658 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Psykoman2008 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: robbiekeegan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Siebren-K. folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: myles.180 folded before Flop
Seat 9: AchunA showed [Tc Td] and won (36525) with a pair of Tens

jdAA88

don't like your 3bets in both cases, why are we 3betting JTs and basically turning a great flatting hand into a bluff in a pretty perfect spot to flat. Same with 77.

As for the cbets, hand 1 I think I'd prefer checking here and then betting a blank turn if he checks turn to us again. Hand 2 I think we should be cbetting here, and if called trying to shut down and get to showdown cheap, or if the turns an A or K possibly turn our hand into a bluff.

jdAA88

actually the 3b with 77 is fine, didn't realize youre in the SB, my bad

Richard~

My motivation for 3betting is usually the same. I dont trust villain to have a tight enough range in the particular spot so I don't think drawing to a nut hand will get paid of as often as I'd like

Edit: And yes, in position I would definitely flat 77, even more so since it's likely to go multiway

Unknown

prob just preference but i like flatting jts better there....

on the flop i think you should cbet and semi bluff your pair, if you are check raised your usually never good. I think you get a lot of checks to you on the turn if he flats with a weak ace, a draw or something weird. Just leaves room to see the river for free a lot i think or barrel.

2nd one i don't know if we're calling if re raised pre? Again i don't know enough about 3bets but i think we can cbet and shove turn.....

Vekked

yikes, you're making it way hard on yourself by making pretty bad 3-bets in the first place... I would almost never 3-bet in either of those spots. You need to have a POLARIZED 3-betting range, meaning nuts or air literally, 77 and JTs are nearly the definition of in-between hands which you don't want to 3-bet because once it gets to post flop you have weird situations like this where you're not sure if your hand is a value hand or a bluff anymore. If you clean up your 3-bet range and have nuts or air, you're going to have a clearer idea of whether your hand is worth value betting, or if it's bluffing (your value hands are almost always worth value betting, your bluffs will only be worth value betting if you hit like 2 pair + or a sick draw or something).

Anyways I'd check back hand 1 in position, and I think hand 2 is a reasonable line but betting flop is ok too if he's passive. But yea you're making it wayyy tough on yourself, these spots are going to be tough for anyone because there's no logical progression from pre-flop to flop as far as your value and bluff ranges. Merging is not something you want to do pre-flop.

Richard~

Thanks for the input, you've given me a lot to think about. Basically in my mind I turnet both these hands into bluffs preflop because as I said I don't like trying to hit nut hands on flops where my opponents range might be too wide preflop to get me paid off as often as I'd like. Is there merit to this way of thinking? Am I better of doing stuff like bluffing postflop more often rather than 3betting mediocre hands preflop?

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

Am I better of doing stuff like bluffing postflop more often rather than 3betting mediocre hands preflop?

i think the point about jts is its better than mediocre...

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

Thanks for the input, you've given me a lot to think about. Basically in my mind I turnet both these hands into bluffs preflop because as I said I don't like trying to hit nut hands on flops where my opponents range might be too wide preflop to get me paid off as often as I'd like. Is there merit to this way of thinking? Am I better of doing stuff like bluffing postflop more often rather than 3betting mediocre hands preflop?

There is merit to that thinking when you're VERY deep. I'm guessing you probably heard someone talk about that in a cash game video or something. Generally I'd say you need to be like 150 or 200BB+ deep for that to be relevant. In MTTs there's not enough of a potential reward because you're not deep enough. You're not the first person to misapply that concept in MTTs so don't worry, I used to think like that myself.

Richard~

Vekked wrote: »

There is merit to that thinking when you're VERY deep. I'm guessing you probably heard someone talk about that in a cash game video or something. Generally I'd say you need to be like 150 or 200BB+ deep for that to be relevant. In MTTs there's not enough of a potential reward because you're not deep enough. You're not the first person to misapply that concept in MTTs so don't worry, I used to think like that myself.

All of this deepstack and 3betting theory is something I'm selftaught in, I've put a lot of thought into a lot of spots and it just seems to make sense for me this way. The whole low poential reward thing is the reason I'm not trying to setmine much, you seem to be implying the opposite that if we're deeper you're better off not setmining much (I'd do it with 50:1 implied vs a loose range and 3 bet with 20:1 implied vs what I percieve as a potential loose range)

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

All of this deepstack and 3betting theory is something I'm selftaught in, I've put a lot of thought into a lot of spots and it just seems to make sense for me this way. The whole low poential reward thing is the reason I'm not trying to setmine much, you seem to be implying the opposite that if we're deeper you're better off not setmining much (I'd do it with 50:1 implied vs a loose range and 3 bet with 20:1 implied vs what I percieve as a potential loose range)

Yea if you're not deep enough to call a certain hand just to setmine you're not going to be deep enough to 3-bet it, you actually need to be even deeper to 3-bet a smaller/mid pair than to flat it. I'm talking VERY deep. Obviously 60-100BB deep you're flatting. Probably even 150-200BB flatting is best most times, but after a certain point 3-betting becomes good because you get so deep that you're never gonna stack someone with a set in a single raised pot.

JTs is a different story, I generally would just never 3-bet it because it's usually smack in the middle of your flatting range ya know?

Richard~

Then the problem is not me 3betting the pairs, then the problem is me merging my preflop range again turning them into bluffs right? I'm better off 3bet bluffing hands without equity and putting the pair in my flatting range?

Possibly 3betting more blockers?

Vekked

The problem is 3-betting hands that you're unsure are for value or as a bluff, they're in between, so you don't know whether to value bet or not when you flop 2nd pair because you're not sure where you stand relative to their range. Don't 3-bet hands without equity obv, 72o isn't a sweet 3-betting hand, just choose hands that are more clearly a bluff (if it is a bluff). The type of hand will depend on the situation. Some situations you should 3-bet bluff with blockers when you don't expect to see a flop often. If you expect flats frequently choose hands that flop well, like 65s/76s and such, hands that are just below your cut-off for flatting. 3-bet bluff the best hands in your folding range.

Richard~

Makes sense. I find this interesting as I see many low stakes regs who don't seem to have much of a flatting range at all, usually I just 4bet them though

Richard~

In hand number two, would you like my 3bet more with 108s?

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

Makes sense. I find this interesting as I see many low stakes regs who don't seem to have much of a flatting range at all, usually I just 4bet them though

This reminds me of a post where a good reg flatted my ep and i check folded aq or something because I froze. Ever since then I've been flatting decent players and watching them squirm.

Thinking about it now it prob has to do with the average randoms flatting range mid game which has a lot of slow played monsters because most people do 3 bet hands like jts kqs 99 etc,

But I do get a lot of success prob from my perceived range. Not likely new for you though Rich, I maybe partly learned it from you

Richard~ wrote: »

In hand number two, would you like my 3bet more with 108s?

I'll bet he does, somehow how seems almost good enough to flat but I think its way better to 3bet than jts and a pocket pair.



I'm curious about when and why we 3bet bluff out of the blinds or even just flatting mp raises from the bb(I saw a hh where V did it with J7s)....that's what I would like to know...

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

In hand number two, would you like my 3bet more with 108s?

Definitely. Although I'd like it slightly better with a card lower than the 10 so it doesn't suck as much when he flats AT/KT/JT type hands. 97s is probably slightly better.

Vekked

darbday wrote: »

This reminds me of a post where a good reg flatted my ep and i check folded aq or something because I froze. Ever since then I've been flatting decent players and watching them squirm.

Thinking about it now it prob has to do with the average randoms flatting range mid game which has a lot of slow played monsters because most people do 3 bet hands like jts kqs 99 etc,

But I do get a lot of success prob from my perceived range. Not likely new for you though Rich, I maybe partly learned it from you


I'll bet he does, somehow how seems almost good enough to flat but I think its way better to 3bet than jts and a pocket pair.



I'm curious about when and why we 3bet bluff out of the blinds or even just flatting mp raises from the bb(I saw a hh where V did it with J7s)....that's what I would like to know...

Yo which hand history was that Darb? I could try and break it down if I saw it. I'm guessing that the opener was very very loose and min-raised if I defended J7s. Basically if someone's opening like 60% of the time it's folded to them defending and going to town on them post flop on flops they're never going to hit hard is the best strat. The other possibility is if the villain was a really really big fish and I just wanted to play a pot with something reasonable. Defending J7s is not something I'd do regularly though, and I'd recommend you doing it even less at this point until you're confident in identifying the spots to be doing it (it's not going to be hugely +EV anyways, but could be significantly -EV if you pick the wrong spots to do it, or play those spots incorrectly post).

Unknown

Vekked wrote: »

Yo which hand history was that Darb? I could try and break it down if I saw it. I'm guessing that the opener was very very loose and min-raised if I defended J7s. Basically if someone's opening like 60% of the time it's folded to them defending and going to town on them post flop on flops they're never going to hit hard is the best strat. The other possibility is if the villain was a really really big fish and I just wanted to play a pot with something reasonable. Defending J7s is not something I'd do regularly though, and I'd recommend you doing it even less at this point until you're confident in identifying the spots to be doing it (it's not going to be hugely +EV anyways, but could be significantly -EV if you pick the wrong spots to do it, or play those spots incorrectly post).

haha ya i don't expect to be able to play j7s oop , and im sure its not a normal thing for you and the thread is out of context likely. But I do feel like it plays better then qj or something vs a loose pass or agg oppenents mp range. So I wonder if its about not being dominated. But ya a lot of things are making sense but when to play back from the blind and 3bet with the air part of our range is something I have really read about or seen.

not sure about the hh ill try to find it but its a 2 plus 2 post of yours obv....might be old i don't remember