Hand from Stars 10:15 $11 rebuy

Chugs

The hand below crippled me, but i managed to stay alive on the short stack and re-build to a decent stack.


I raise all in with AQ from early position (about 13,000), folded around to the BB (who is tight and hasn't been defending his blinds the whole tourney) ... calls my all-in for another 10,000 or so with ducks, dueces the good old 22 caliber rifle. I don't improve and i'm gone ... oh well i guess if all_Aces is good enough to go down to dueces in the same tourney, who am i.


I want to get some feedback on the below hand. I understand that most people would say calling in the first place was the mistake but i'm not entirely sure of that, since i felt i had decent drawing cards and a chance at a rare cheap flop.

I essentially made every call based on pot odds, after putting in the first 400 voluntarily ...



*********** # 48 **************
PokerStars Game #1154147589: Tournament #4953070, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/02/01 - 00:11:48 (ET)
Table '4953070 123' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Herald (19988 in chips)
Seat 2: brofell (5068 in chips)
Seat 3: 007TH SON (16195 in chips)
Seat 4: UK Nick (5195 in chips)
Seat 5: chugs (4221 in chips)
Seat 6: spanky44646 (1445 in chips)
Seat 7: gloierm (7275 in chips)
Seat 8: sasha777 (4340 in chips)
Seat 9: spartan50 (2790 in chips)
Herald: posts the ante 25
brofell: posts the ante 25
007TH SON: posts the ante 25
UK Nick: posts the ante 25
chugs: posts the ante 25
spanky44646: posts the ante 25
gloierm: posts the ante 25
sasha777: posts the ante 25
spartan50: posts the ante 25
gloierm: posts small blind 200
sasha777: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to chugs [8c Tc]
spartan50: calls 400
Herald: folds
brofell: folds
007TH SON: folds
UK Nick: folds
chugs: calls 400
spanky44646: raises 1020 to 1420 and is all-in
gloierm: folds
sasha777: folds
spartan50: calls 1020
chugs: calls 1020
*** FLOP *** [6s 8s 6d]
spartan50: checks
chugs: bets 1200
spartan50: raises 145 to 1345 and is all-in
chugs: calls 145
*** TURN *** [6s 8s 6d] [3s]
*** RIVER *** [6s 8s 6d 3s] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
spartan50: shows [6h 7h] (three of a kind, Sixes)
chugs: shows [8c Tc] (two pair, Tens and Eights)
spartan50 collected 2690 from side pot
spanky44646: shows [4c 4s] (two pair, Sixes and Fours)
spartan50 collected 5085 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7775 Main pot 5085. Side pot 2690. | Rake 0
Board [6s 8s 6d 3s Th]
Seat 1: Herald folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: brofell folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: 007TH SON folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: UK Nick folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: chugs showed [8c Tc] and lost with two pair, Tens and Eights
Seat 6: spanky44646 (button) showed [4c 4s] and lost with two pair, Sixes and Fours
Seat 7: gloierm (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: sasha777 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: spartan50 showed [6h 7h] and won (7775) with three of a kind, Sixes

BBC Z

I want to get some feedback on the below hand. I understand that most people would say calling in the first place was the mistake but i'm not entirely sure of that, since i felt i had decent drawing cards and a chance at a rare cheap flop.

I think we need to define the term 'cheap'.. It cost you 25% of your stack to see the flop with a crummy 1 gapped suited connector.. I believe the max that should be paid by those types of hands preflop is 5-8% of your stack if you think that when you hit your hand you can bust the other guy.

I essentially made every call based on pot odds, after putting in the first 400 voluntarily ...

How is limping for 400 and then calling 1200 making every call based on pot odds? I dont think 8Ts has a pot equity edge preflop against two random hands.

On the flop, you see why you should toss it preflop.. You make top pair but it's a suited/connected/paired board.. 99+ has you dominated, x6, x8, xxs, and even an OESD.. Yikes.

Pull the eject level on your seat and get out..

Unknown

1020 to call into a 4065 pot... you do have odds to call. The question is, what does that mean to you? There are times when 'pot-odds calls' go out the window, and those times are usually a factor of the size of your stack. Sure, it's 'only' 1020 to call into a pot four times that size, but it's a large percentage of your stack. In this case, I'd probably use my stack size as my guide instead of the pot odds, and fold.

Another example.... last night I have about 10XBB after calling an all-in raise preflop with 77. I'm in with one other player who's still live. I see a KQx flop, and my 'live' opponent bets the minimum, 800. Pot odds probably dictate a call (maybe 9K in the pot at that point), but my stack tells me that I should fold my sevens, and save my remaining chips for a better spot.

As it turned out, my sevens would have been good, but that's beside the point. OK, that's not a great example. I probably wouldn't have seen the turn even with a big stack (although I probably would have raised the flop against this particular player).

On the subject of busting out with 22. I had the BB call me with 22 after I raised all-in. It cost him 2/3 of his stack, and he called. Unreal. Then, you moved all-in at the 1500/3000 level, and got called by 22 in the BB at your table. Both of us lost. Scary. Then, in a $200 SNG, I have 55 in the BB and 7XBB. SB moves in, and I call. He has 22. Spikes a 2 on the turn. 22 knocked me out of two tournaments last night, and knocked you out of one.

Unknown

It's worth noting that you built the tiny amount of chips you had left after this hand up to a force to be reckoned with. Clearly you have a talent for playing a short stack. While your level of comfort on a short stack should be factored into some decisions, I think that you were SO shortstacked after this hand that we can't really take that into consideration, either.

Zithal

To me this seems like an easy throw away, and a good example of the Gap Theory in action (you need a better hand to call with, than you need to raise with). UTG calls, you call and you get a microstack pushing all in.

When a microstack pushes with two callers already in the pot that tells me he has a pair or a Ace, (and, if he's a good player, a med-high suited connector) which makes you, at best, a slight under dog to that player.

Note also that the SB pot committed himself to the hand, by then calling off half his stack in early position.

With a bigger stack, you can risk the call, but as BBC Z pointed out, you're risking a 1/4 of your stack on a bad drawing hand.

My preferences in order for this hand are...

1. Fold pre-flop (if UTG hadn't called, then consider a steal)
2. Fold after the all-in / call. **this seems like an easy fold based on the action**
3. Raise the UTG player in a steal attempt. For this hand, you would have gotten called by the short stack, and UTG would have been VERY hard pressed to continue with his mis suited connector having an all-in called before him.
4. Call with a all-in and another player calling it behind you.

magithighs

Zithal wrote:

To me this seems like an easy throw away, and a good example of the Gap Theory in action (you need a better hand to call with, than you need to raise with). UTG calls, you call and you get a microstack pushing all in.

When a microstack pushes with two callers already in the pot that tells me he has a pair or a Ace, (and, if he's a good player, a med-high suited connector) which makes you, at best, a slight under dog to that player.

Note also that the SB pot committed himself to the hand, by then calling off half his stack in early position.

With a bigger stack, you can risk the call, but as BBC Z pointed out, you're risking a 1/4 of your stack on a bad drawing hand.

My preferences in order for this hand are...

1. Fold pre-flop (if UTG hadn't called, then consider a steal)
2. Fold after the all-in / call. **this seems like an easy fold based on the action**
3. Raise the UTG player in a steal attempt. For this hand, you would have gotten called by the short stack, and UTG would have been VERY hard pressed to continue with his mis suited connector having an all-in called before him.
4. Call with a all-in and another player calling it behind you.

Excellent analysis Zithal! The wheels are turning. I would consider this as a priortized list, with the emphasis on the top 2 -- 80%. I like point 3, onlly as an all-in steal, as it's likely you'll have two live cards. And, I wouldn't go with the four option, as all your fold equity is gone.

Chugs

Thanks for all the input, i'm sure more is still coming.

Looking back at it, i really don't like my play at any point in that hand, let alone getting invovled with the hand to begin with.

After the all-in and the call once action got back to me, i went through this bad thought process.

1. Well my cards look and feel like they may be playing by themselves (against large cards)
2. If i push all-in right now i can't see me getting the small stack off this hand pre-flop having already put in over half his stack. So i ruled this option out.
3. So i decided to make an overall weak move, i decided to call and take a flop. If i had seen a flop with high cards i would have likely just shut it down and been done with it. If the flop was rags, connecting with me or not i was going to push anyways. Actually i think i would have pushed on any flop to be honest.

Overall i think getting involved with the hand to start with was a mistake considering my stack size.

ScottyZ

Pre-flop: I generally wouldn't limp in here myself myself with T8s, but I don't mind the play. Calling the all-in raise for ~1K more is a mistake I think. Accept that your limp-in attempt has now gone sour.

Flop: I like moving (basically) all-in here. The chances are excellent that your hand is good against the opponent who still has chips left, and you want that opponent *out* of the pot, since well over half of the deck will appear to possibly kill your hand on the turn.

Intending to move all-in on *any* ragged flop (after your opponent checks) is a big mistake. You're describing betting into a dry side pot with chances almost nil that you are beating the all-in player. No point running a bluff successfully on one opponent when opponent #2 will remain in the pot 100% of the time (with a hand that probably beats T-high).

ScottyZ