Should I have bet the river?

PokerEH.com

I had an interesting hand come up last week in Brantford

I was playing 10-20, up a few hundred, about 3 hours into my session.

A new player sat down with 4 racks (about 2 grand), and had the 'wild look' to him.

I was dealt 2 black Jacks in MP, and everyone folded to me. I raised. everyone folded to new guy, who looked down at his cards, and re-raised. He was still taking his chips out of his tray.

Everyone folded to big blind, who cold called the 2 bets. I capped. Both called.

3 handed on the flop. Flop comes Js 10h 5h

BB checks to me, I bet

Crazy player raises. BB cold calls raise, I re-raise, crazy caps, BB cold calls caps, I call

Turn comes 2h

BB checks, I bet. I was a little scared of flush, but knew I had outs to full house, and didn't want to lose the lead. Crazy muttered something, then called. BB called.

River comes 3h.... 4 hearts on board

Big blind checks, I check, crazy checks.

Crazy had AK, no hearts... gutshot with 2 overs

BB had 85 offsuit, flopped bottom pair, and had the 5 of hearts...

I think I needed to bet the river... The pot was so big, but I just didn't see how both of my opponents would fold, given 4 hearts on board. I don't THINK the BB would have folded to 1 more bet on river, but you never know. I was just so stunned at the running hearts that I gave up on the pot. I was, at the time, thinking of check-folding the river...

If given the identical situation heads up, I'd bet the river every time, but with two callers right to the river, I had figured at least one of them for, if not the flush, at least the backdoor flush+pair...

pkrfce9

Put yourself in their shoes. If you had made the flush, even a very small one, wouldn't you call one more bet for a huge pot at the river? There's even a very small chance someone made a straight at the river. Isn't 4-6 or A-4 just as likely as 8-5?

It is a classic case of 'if he calls you you are beaten. if not you would have won without betting anyway.' Seems to me you would have been 'flush'ing your money down the toilet. Chances are BB with a 5 high flush would have been making a crying call but I don't think he would have let it go for 1 more bet.

By any chance was BB a calling station? 2 bets cold with 85o? Calling capped flop with bottom pair and a very low backdoor flush draw? Wow!

Now the other question is, if BB had bet the river, would you have called? You have to be concerned that maybe 'crazy' would raise behind you. An interesting situation.

magithighs

Did collusion ever cross your mind? Either that or thank your lucky stars you're in the game with BB/85o. If you had a baseball bat, or a loaded gun, you wouldn't get BB off that hand, so I wouldn't sweat not betting the river.

Cheers
Magi

ScottyZ

I'd neither bet the river nor check with the intention of folding, the reason being "pot too big" in either case. If the same hand was heads-up on the river, I'd check and call just about every time.

I can't see this being collusion. I can see no point in this hand where the two opponents could possibly be working together. In fact, if they were actually colluding, in this particular hand, they did nothing but put money into the pot when PokerEH.com had way the best of it. Put me up against that collusion team please.

This is nothing more special than a player slightly overplaying* AK with a gutshot & two overs. The BB will probably call any number of bets pre-flop from a blind since he is either a "must see the flop" player or an "already invested in the pot" player, and will continue on in a hand for any number of bets with any piece of the flop or remote chance to improve. Nothing unusual here.

ScottyZ

*I think raising the flop is a good play, capping it is a little wild, but may still be a sound tactical play.

Chugs

I think you're fine checking at the end ... unless some how you bet and the new player raises (with nut ace high) ... even then i don't think you stop BB from making a crying call on the end. I think my mind simply goes check-call and asume anyone who hits a flush even a small one is likely to call.

PokerEH.com

By any chance was BB a calling station? 2 bets cold with 85o? Calling capped flop with bottom pair and a very low backdoor flush draw? Wow!

BB was a calling station. It was a Friday night, which seems to bring the chasers out of the woodwork.

Now the other question is, if BB had bet the river, would you have called? You have to be concerned that maybe 'crazy' would raise behind you. An interesting situation.

I probibly would have been suspicious if BB had came out betting, but I don't think I could have called, with crazy behind. As I said, the fact that there were 2 opponents right to the river makes it a much more difficult situation. I could easily see just 1 opponent not having at least 1 heart, but with two, I probibly would have made a crying fold, with crazy behind me. I'm not one of those players who will feel bad for folding on the river, even as the aggressor the whole hand.

My potential river bet would have been a bluff. With 4 hearts on board, I was no longer betting the best hand. But I think to myself, there is no way crazy calls with A high, and even if calling station BB folds just 1 time in 10, the pot is big enough to justify a river bet...

Pot was...
Preflop 3X 40 +10 = 130
Flop 3 X 40 = 120
Turn 3 X 20 = 60

so before it gets to me on the river, pot is over $300. Becuase BB checked to me again on river, I didn't put him on Nut flush. Had I bet river and crazy raised, I could have laid down. I could tell that BB was very suprized to have the best hand on the river. I think he was one of those players who feels 'pot committed' when they call some raises before the flop, and will go to the river with just about anything.