Final Table Deals

I was reading on another site the topic of final table deals. I thought it was a geat topic. I was wondering what the opinion was from people on this site. I didnt read much of the responses there since the first comment was something like stfu op. I haven't played alot of live mtts but I could imagine this happening frequently. If people do it with a 1st place of 30k, would it not happen alot more in say WSOP events. Would it happen at GBH as an example. I guess it depends on the players and their bankrolls. I look forward to the feedback.

Comments

  • payperview wrote: »
    I was reading on another site the topic of final table deals. I thought it was a geat topic. I was wondering what the opinion was from people on this site. I didnt read much of the responses there since the first comment was something like stfu op. I haven't played alot of live mtts but I could imagine this happening frequently. If people do it with a 1st place of 30k, would it not happen alot more in say WSOP events. Would it happen at GBH as an example. I guess it depends on the players and their bankrolls. I look forward to the feedback.

    I don't believe WSOP openly allow chops, could be wrong... Other smaller events it happens quite frequently... I'm not chopping without appropriate value... In fact I'm not likely to chop unless I'm playing with friends or blind/stack ratio is so high as to effectively remove any play.
  • It really depends on the stack sizes, blind levels, skill level of the players remaining, and the amount of money involved.

    I used to chop all the time, figuring two in the hand is worth one in the bush.
  • compuease wrote: »
    In fact I'm not likely to chop unless I'm playing with friends or blind/stack ratio is so high as to effectively remove any play.

    ^ this.

    or if my opponents are way better than me, then i might try to chop it if i'm tired and it's late.
  • trigs wrote: »
    ^ this.

    or if my opponents are way better than me, then i might try to chop it if i'm tired and it's late.

    if your opponents are better than you you should always be chopping ^^'

    I've chopped some fairly big tournaments to reduce varience. Was it -EV? Probably. did I feel the need to gamle for the rest on a limited bankroll when I could take an additional 1000 dollars uncontested? not really
  • cpfers don't chop
  • darbday wrote: »
    cpfers don't chop
    Correct, we use the axe...
  • compuease wrote: »
    Correct, we use the axe...

    I thought it was a HAMMER.
  • I'll use an example, I chopped 3-handed at Venetian this past weekend. Of the 3 left, I believe I had a considerable skill advantage, problem was the blinds. Average (which I had), was only about 10bb's, which pretty much voids my advantage, so I took an even chop. Had there been even a little more play, I would not have considered a chop.
  • I've chopped. The key consideration is risk-reward ratio, which many different things factor into. If you're HU and have twice your opponent's stack, one lucky all-in by the opponent can reverse the situation and totally kill your bargaining power. It's better to give up a small portion of first-place money than to end up with only second-place money.
  • I've chopped. The key consideration is risk-reward ratio, which many different things factor into. If you're HU and have twice your opponent's stack, one lucky all-in by the opponent can reverse the situation and totally kill your bargaining power. It's better to give up a small portion of first-place money than to end up with only second-place money.

    are you suggesting that if you have double your opponent's chips heads up you should be chopping?
  • It's better to give up a small portion of first-place money than to end up with only second-place money.
    because more often than not you will win more money from not chopping here i feel like its better to not chop
  • T8urmoney wrote: »
    I'll use an example, I chopped 3-handed at Venetian this past weekend. Of the 3 left, I believe I had a considerable skill advantage, problem was the blinds. Average (which I had), was only about 10bb's, which pretty much voids my advantage, so I took an even chop. Had there been even a little more play, I would not have considered a chop.

    That's where I feel like I have one of the biggest edges I can have ^^'
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    That's where I feel like I have one of the biggest edges I can have ^^'
    me 2
  • T8urmoney wrote: »
    I'll use an example, I chopped 3-handed at Venetian this past weekend.
    TVB :confused:
  • Yes, I would chop if I had a 2:1 stack advantage on a HU opponent, but I wouldn't chop 50/50. What I might do is give the opponent a 5% premium over what he would have made just finishing second. The reason is that suckouts happen all the time in HU since the AI range tends to be very wide. One suckout by my opponent and suddenly I've got a 2:1 stack _dis_advantage. People are free to disagree with this approach but I think it's the most cost-effective.
  • The reason is that suckouts happen all the time in HU since the AI range tends to be very wide.
    its just that nothing short of god effects a suck out....???
  • Yes, I would chop if I had a 2:1 stack advantage on a HU opponent, but I wouldn't chop 50/50. What I might do is give the opponent a 5% premium over what he would have made just finishing second. The reason is that suckouts happen all the time in HU since the AI range tends to be very wide. One suckout by my opponent and suddenly I've got a 2:1 stack _dis_advantage. People are free to disagree with this approach but I think it's the most cost-effective.

    Very cost effective . . . which is why only an idiot would agree to a chop like that.
  • Milo wrote: »
    Very cost effective . . . which is why only an idiot would agree to a chop like that.
    hey hey hey.........were learning here....:mad:
  • And who would the idiot be, the guy with the bigger stack or the guy with the smaller stack?
  • The smaller stack would be the idiot to chop for an extra 5% on top of 2nd place money. Consider the following:
    Player A has 2,000,000 in chips
    Player B has 1,000,000 in chips

    1st pays 10k
    2nd pays 6k

    Why would player B settle for an extra 300? Better to risk losing that 300 (and settling for 6k) for the chance you catch lucky and win the whole 10k.
  • I see your reasoning, Milo. On one past occasion, however, I did offer that kind of chop to a HU opponent and my offer was accepted. Mind you, we'd been going back and forth for about 75 minutes and it didn't look like the HU battle was going to end any time soon, so he might have been tired and in a hurry to get it over with.

    EDIT: I just realized that 300 is not 5% of 16K. The amount offered in the chop would be more like 800. But that's a minor point.
  • In Milo's example the diff is 4K and with a 2-1 chip diff, 2nd place would need to get at least 7333 to be close to fair..
  • yeah, who the hell agrees to picking up an extra 5% on top of second lol

    You would have to have me at a 20:1 defecit and I might still not agree
  • compuease wrote: »
    I don't believe WSOP openly allow chops, could be wrong... Other smaller events it happens quite frequently... I'm not chopping without appropriate value... In fact I'm not likely to chop unless I'm playing with friends or blind/stack ratio is so high as to effectively remove any play.

    We actually spoke to the TD at the WSOP while Pudge was at the final table and they said there have been numerous chops at the WSOP. Just they are done off camera. No chop discussion at his event anyways, it was the railbirds who played "Ask Your WSOP TD things you probably won't ever need to know"

    For me I been fortunate enough to chop several tournaments in my life and usually it has been after 16-18 hours of play or on the 2nd day of a gruelling live event. My rule for chopping is usually I have a specific money target (obv first place money is the real target but when everyone has 10 BB it becomes bingo), usually I try to move up 2-3 money spots if possible when doing the chop. In live tournaments I like to use my 'nice' guy image to persaude extra money as well. A good idea is to get the short stacks against the big stacks and then throw your two cents in there.

    Always good to re-iterate that it is now a bingo tournament and player X is on a heater so we don't want them doubling up 2-3 times and bringing themselves back into it. There is always 1 live player at the final table that is deathly afraid of this improbable event happening and then champions your cause. If you are in the USA it is also a good idea to mention your 30% withholding so you are really upset over the fact you are losing money right away. You can then bargain for a few more bucks or even cut a deal to get someone else to swap the tax with you (if the casino allows it)

    I also never initiate the request to chop as then it puts a target on your head. You always want to look like you are playing the specific tournament for shits and giggles and another 2-3 pay jump in the form of a chop doesn't even make you blink.
  • I prefer not to chop as the stakes I am usually playing are not big enough to make me want to deal. Plus I enjoy hu as it just doesn't seem to happen as often as I would like!
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