AKo, What would you do?
***** Hand History for Game 1476612793 *****
$1/$2 Hold'em - Saturday, January 22, 20:55:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 25519 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: twosnakestwo ( $57.25 )
Seat 2: JonBeazie ( $85.25 )
Seat 3: slicerj ( $38.5 )
Seat 4: lickemdnlow ( $92.5 )
Seat 5: jeffrey1018 ( $57 )
Seat 6: tippup ( $25.25 )
Seat 8: BBC_Z ( $53 )
Seat 9: jodi_lynn3 ( $45.5 )
Seat 10: jackieLeeR ( $58.25 )
Seat 7: StockDork8 ( $16 )
tippup posts small blind [$0.5].
StockDork8 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BBC_Z [ As Kc ]
BBC_Z raises [$2].
jodi_lynn3 calls [$2].
jackieLeeR calls [$2].
twosnakestwo calls [$2].
slicerj folds.
lickemdnlow folds.
jeffrey1018 folds.
tippup folds.
StockDork8 raises [$2].
BBC_Z calls [$1].
jodi_lynn3 calls [$1].
jackieLeeR calls [$1].
twosnakestwo calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, Ts, Qh ]
StockDork8 bets [$1]. <-- BB.
What do you do? The pot is 15SB at this point and it's 5 handed.
Your 'reads' (aka Gametime+ stats) :
I'm UTG.
UTG+1 is LooseAgressive/Agressive
UTG+2 is Loose Passive Passive
UTG+3 is Loose Agressive Passive
No read on the BB
My 'Table Image' is Tight Agressive / Agressive.
I'll update the hand down the line. I'm curious to hear what you'd do.
$1/$2 Hold'em - Saturday, January 22, 20:55:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 25519 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: twosnakestwo ( $57.25 )
Seat 2: JonBeazie ( $85.25 )
Seat 3: slicerj ( $38.5 )
Seat 4: lickemdnlow ( $92.5 )
Seat 5: jeffrey1018 ( $57 )
Seat 6: tippup ( $25.25 )
Seat 8: BBC_Z ( $53 )
Seat 9: jodi_lynn3 ( $45.5 )
Seat 10: jackieLeeR ( $58.25 )
Seat 7: StockDork8 ( $16 )
tippup posts small blind [$0.5].
StockDork8 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BBC_Z [ As Kc ]
BBC_Z raises [$2].
jodi_lynn3 calls [$2].
jackieLeeR calls [$2].
twosnakestwo calls [$2].
slicerj folds.
lickemdnlow folds.
jeffrey1018 folds.
tippup folds.
StockDork8 raises [$2].
BBC_Z calls [$1].
jodi_lynn3 calls [$1].
jackieLeeR calls [$1].
twosnakestwo calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, Ts, Qh ]
StockDork8 bets [$1]. <-- BB.
What do you do? The pot is 15SB at this point and it's 5 handed.
Your 'reads' (aka Gametime+ stats) :
I'm UTG.
UTG+1 is LooseAgressive/Agressive
UTG+2 is Loose Passive Passive
UTG+3 is Loose Agressive Passive
No read on the BB
My 'Table Image' is Tight Agressive / Agressive.
I'll update the hand down the line. I'm curious to hear what you'd do.
Comments
Wader
Why are you thinking AA or KK but not QQ? I'm already holding an Ace and a King so the probability I'm up against those three hands is equally small (since I know of three cards that arent in his hand).
my 2 cents
Red
Mike
Sorry, SirWatts but why do you have to chase at all. The correct move is check and fold.
With a tight table image, he should have respect and others should check as well. Think about what you are saying, "chase". Players loose more money chasing the odd card. You have AK off and are looking to catch a card on 4th or the river. Is it wise, no.
Lets say you catch a king on 4th, the chances of some playing a K,Q or K, 10 are good in a loose game. BTW, the K of spades does not help you as it puts a flush on board. OK so lets say you get and A on 4th or the river, I still see you not winning. Someone with K J has the nuts.
Everyone should remember that AK suited or not is still a drawing hand. Remember that this is a small limit game and folding for most players is not an option. This is what IMO makes a winning player. Learn the easy folds.
To quote a book I read
A gut shot straigt is a fold. Think if you would still draw for more if the limit was 24/40 or 50/100 or better yet 1/2 no limit and someone put $20.00 after the flop. I would put them on 2 pair only as they want this hand over. Anything less I put them on trips as they want you to play.
My two cents.
Excellent answer. And the answer I was hoping to hear. That my friends is Tight-Agressive Poker: Tight preflop, Tight in small pots and Agressive in large pots.
Here is my reasoning for a raise after the BB bets: I've got the nut inside straight draw, backdoor nut flush draw and two overcards and the pot is a monster. My hand is too good to fold in a large pot, so lets take a page out of SSH and make a 'loose' raise. I may be able to buy one or two outs to the A/K's by facing my passive opponents with 2 bets cold. If they fold, I get to see the river for cheap with proper odds (maybe even free card). If they call, I've still got amazing pot odds to draw. If a raise comes after me (note the passive players postflop , so I highly doubt it) then I'm going to probably have odds to see the river anyway.
NOTHING is a fold when you have pot odds to chase the nuts in a large pot.
It's party 1/2. These guys even dont notice when a 1% VPIP / 0% PFR /over 200 hands raises..
I think this hand is a pretty good example of Miller's SSH advice.
Anyway, here is the hand as I played it..
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, Ts, Qh ]
StockDork8 bets [$1].
BBC_Z calls [$1].
jodi_lynn3 folds.
jackieLeeR raises [$2].
twosnakestwo folds.
StockDork8 calls [$1].
BBC_Z calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
StockDork8 bets [$2].
BBC_Z raises [$4].
jackieLeeR calls [$4].
StockDork8 calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
StockDork8 bets [$2].
BBC_Z calls [$2].
jackieLeeR folds.
StockDork8 shows [ Jh, Js ] three of a kind, jacks.
BBC_Z shows [ As, Kc ] a straight, ten to ace.
BBC_Z wins $36.5 from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
Yes, I hit my 2 outer on the turn. But thats results oriented so it doesnt matter.
BB had JJ. Of the two folders, I wouldnt be shocked if one had AT- and a low pocket pair.
Of course, the reason I posted the hand was that I should have raised the flop while I only called it.
Getting ~15 to 1 from the pot is almost exactly correct in terms of pot odds for a one card 3-out* draw. An important consideration is: do you expect a raise behind you on the flop?
You (and Poker Tracker) have rated the three opponents behind you as Agg, Pas, and Pas in their post-flop play. Obviously the passive players shouldn't concern you too much (unless they end up raising). Unless the Agg player is a "wild one" whom you have noticed raising a lot of flops, I wouldn't expect a raise out of him/her, since he/she was merely a caller pre-flop.
Raising in this spot in LPLLHE seems unwarranted. It seems unlikely that you can buy any outs here (most one pair hands including an A or K will call you anyway). IMO, you both
(a) have no way to protect your hand (or buy outs) in any substantial way on the flop, and
(b) have no hand worth protecting anyway.
I would just call here.
UPDATE: I noticed that you posted since I started writing my own post (had to go get lunch) and you prefered raising over how you actually played it. While I know of Miller's advice on doing your best to protect large pots, I still think that raising may be going a little overboard with that concept, and I like the way you actually played the hand.
ScottyZ
*You have 3 clean nut outs. You may essentially have more or less outs than this depending on how you count your one pair, backdoor flush, or Js outs; and also taking into account your opponents' possible redraws against you.
I think the key to the reasoning behind raising is that a lot of players don't take the current size of the pot into consideration when they see action. They're looking for the exit door as fast as possible. So the difference in immediate EV of my raise and call is marginal, loose raises can force these passive weak players into submission and thus, theres more potential +EV to the made off the raise.
One player was getting 18 to 1 to call a bet, the second was getting 9 to 1 and they folded.
I think it's safe to consider that a backdoor flush would be good for 1 out (subtract the .5 for the boats). The Aces and Kings I'd consider for like 1/4th their normal value, so thats another out.
The point i'd really like ot get across to everyone that reads this forum is that you can't start getting weak in large pots.. Calling and raising at their worst can cause you to lose one bet. Folding a large pot for a single bet can cost 10-20% of a large pot.
I'd definitely agree with this point in general, and, as you mentioned, this is an important theme in SSH.
Again, I'd generally agree with these ideas, and folding on the flop in this particular hand is a good example of such a costly play I think.
Many probably don't. Taking this idea further, I find that many LPLLHE players don't even take into account the number of bets they are facing in a majority of their decisions.*
The LL weak-tighties will generally fold for just one bet (as you said, often with utter disregard to the size of the pot). The LL calling stations will generally call regardless of whether you raised or not. (I've been thinking a lot lately in terms of "Know thine enemy", and I think the vast majority of non-expert LLHE players can be put into one of these two boxes.)
A primary reason for raising (particularly on the flop) is to cause the calling stations (whom you expect to call anyway) to be making major mistakes when calling. I don't often expect calling stations with even marginal hands to be folding for one or two bets cold.
Of course, you still should raise (and re-raise) with your strong (and sometimes marginal) hands. You might sometimes get someone to fold for two bets when they would have called one. You might sometimes be called two cold by someone drawing nearly dead. You might raise a marginal hand and draw out.
Even despite the good general points that you (and SSH) are bringing up, I still think you don't have quite enough of a hand to raise with here. But raising by no means strikes me as outrageous either.
ScottyZ
*At least I find it is especially so when it is one compared to two bets. Then suddenly these same players will "go into the tank" when facing three bets (either three cold, or called one and two more back to them). Hence, the importance of 3-betting more than usual in LPLLHE, which could probably be its own thread.
When you just called on the river rather than betting....
Were you hoping jackieLeeR was going to overcall/raise on the river after a bet and a call?
Did you put your opponents on "Play any two suited"?????
I have no idea about villians since this was a LOOOONG time ago
On the river, I figured with the flush card, I'm either going to lose one bet (calling and running into the flush) or losing 3 bets by raising and getting 3-bet when I'm forced to call. Also his river donk made me think flush.
My original intent of this post was to highlight an example of being aggressive in a big pot. It was only with ScottyZ's responses that made me believe that calling is pretty good here too.
This is a really great point that I missed 2 1/2 years ago :-).. People who want to fold will likely fold to one bet, and people that want to call will likely call any number of bets. Figure out who's who and profit.
I'd say this applies more to B&M than online anymore..
This is similar to what I was saying to Moose in the tread about check/raise for a free card on the turn. (Well buying a card on the turn.)
What do you think of doing that on the flop? Raising the bettor on the flop and then go from there?
This is 100% true and still true up to 5/10 in my opinion. I'm very aware of the dude who hasn't preflop raised in 200 hands all of a sudden raises or re raises.