so...I checked back a wierd spot

Richard~

Do we like this? I understand a lot can catch up to us and we binked a good turn but I wanted more value

OnGame - 25/50 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: PokerTracker - Online Poker Software, Player Stats Tracking & HUD

CO: 1,400.00
BTN: 1,010.00
SB: 2,525.00
BB: 5,580.00
UTG: 8,835.00
UTG+1: 2,425.00
MP: 2,035.00
Hero (MP+1): 1,350.00
LP: 1,380.00

SB posts SB 25.00, BB posts BB 50.00

Pre Flop: (75.00) Hero has :ts :ah

fold, fold, fold,
Hero raises to 125.00,
fold, fold,
BTN calls 125.00,
SB calls 100.00,
BB calls 75.00

Flop: (500.00, 4 players) :qh :5h :as
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: (500.00, 4 players) :ac
SB checks, BB bets 375.00,
Hero calls 375.00, fold,
SB calls 375.00

River: (1625.00, 3 players) :7c
SB checks, BB bets 600.00,
Hero calls 600.00, fold

BB shows :qs :10h (Two Pair, Aces and Queens)
Hero shows :ts :ah (Three of a Kind, Aces)
Hero wins 2,825.00

DennisG

I don't mind that check at all on the flop. But if we are certain we are ahead, and checking for value (that sounds funny), why aren't we raising the river?

The Highflyer

Personally I like a half pot cb here with 4 players to take out or get value from hands like ax, qx, 56 or a flush draw, especially with your stack size and 500 pf in the pot. The way it played out with an A coming on the turn the BB could feel that he is good and you would likely extract the same amount out of him with a turn check and river value. However you do hold a blocker to the nut flush so a flop check is not horrible but I could see a bad beat post in the other thread had a 5,6,heart come on the turn .

Richard~

DennisG wrote: »

I don't mind that check at all on the flop. But if we are certain we are ahead, and checking for value (that sounds funny), why aren't we raising the river?

I had 200 chips left in my stack and there was still a small chance the other guy would overcall me I guess. Might've missed value

On the flop I'm not confident I'm ahead but I'm confident enough to get my small stack in the middle. If I cbet flop I'm expecting folds from hands as strong as QK given my stack and following from that my percieved open range and cbet bluff frequency into 3 other players.

Also I can check for information in case button bets in position so I can check raise or button bets in position gets a caller and I can again check raise as well as button bets in position gets raised before me and I can fold (also button checks in position and against turn goes bet - raise and then I'll probably still fold) It's in my eyes too late to bet to "see where we're at"

I think that this is a rare line though and I don't see it taken very often so that's why I wanted some input on it

The Highflyer

Richard~ wrote: »

I think that this is a rare line though and I don't see it taken very often so that's why I wanted some input on it

If you're to take this line I think you should do it with a more comfortable stack as you could have easily gone broke on the hand rather than ship a nice pot regardless. I really don't see too many players folding hands like qx to a cb that is half or less of the pot here, while you protect your hand and get value in the process. If one of the 3 other players made 2 pair, a flush or trips on the turn you would have either been broke or crushed.

jdAA88

I don't mind this at all, wp

T8urmoney

jdAA88 wrote: »

I don't mind this at all, wp

^^this

Maybe a small cbet on flop, but I think you got max value as played when SB comes along on turn (maybe shove river for the xtra 200, but meh)

DennisG

Richard~ wrote: »

I had 200 chips left in my stack and there was still a small chance the other guy would overcall me I guess. Might've missed value

oops..lol
I haz math skillzz

DennisG

Do we ever fold this flop with our stack?

Richard~

DennisG wrote: »

Do we ever fold this flop with our stack?

if we're beat, sure. Probably not when starting with 200 BB's or less though

Edit: And by 200 I probably mean 20, otherwise I might have another small leak in my game <.<

Vekked

nh, relatively standard check-back at higher stakes vs. competent players since there's not a ton of worse hands calling once you bet into 3 people on the flop. Vs. weaker players who call pre with a lot of weaker aces than AT a c-bet is def fine since they have a lot more worse hands in their range you can get value from. With the BDNFD checking is def fine though, I would bet without it.

DennisG

Richard~ wrote: »

if we're beat, sure. Probably not when starting with 200 BB's or less though

Edit: And by 200 I probably mean 20, otherwise I might have another small leak in my game <.<

We started with 26bb, bet 2.5 of them pre...I guess my "shorter" game needs work, because I am not raising preflop here and flopping one of the best possible outcomes (sure there are better..1010x, A10x, AAx...but really) and then deciding I am beat and folding...This early in the tourney I think we are ahead of enough hands that stick around (due to poor players-guess it depends on buy in too though). Again, I don't mind the check, but I am just getting it all in after he bets the 600...or against turn bets. I guess I don't feel like I am opening this, with my stack, and not continuing once I get my flop...again..quite likely something I need to work on.

Vekked

I mean if you're not getting the right odds vs. someone's range with your perceived equity then you should always fold even if you started the hand with 12BB, lol. Obv it becomes increasingly less but making your decision before you see action or anything is a mistake. You can decide that your equity is never going to be little enough to fold given a certain flop texture or something, but I think you can find folds under certain circumstances 4-way here.

Unknown

i think that you are ahead of their flop flatting ranges and behind on their raising ranges.

i also think theres a sklansky ism that shows its a mistake to check here i think because you can lose equity and you need to protect it....might be waaaay off here

but if you are planning on check raising then thats a different story for sure...but just not having 3 guys check that flop through....

but i think if you bet small it will have the same effect plus you get more money in while you are confident you are good.

its mostly you who has me betting flops like this....but i won't check with so many in the pot

that being said and in ref. to vekked's post....what stakes (cause i don't think its good for low to mid at this blind level)?

DennisG

Yeah, I can see a spot where I might fold the flop (ie:sb raise, bb all-in), but ok, let's rephrase this....With our stack size...should we be opening pots we don't intend to continue on when we hit? I mean, we have a line in mind, and barring anything out of the ordinary, we should continue telling our story?

Unknown

DennisG wrote: »

With our stack size...should we be opening pots we don't intend to continue on when we hit?

i think so

Vekked

DennisG wrote: »

Yeah, I can see a spot where I might fold the flop (ie:sb raise, bb all-in), but ok, let's rephrase this....With our stack size...should we be opening pots we don't intend to continue on when we hit? I mean, we have a line in mind, and barring anything out of the ordinary, we should continue telling our story?

I'm still not entirely sure what you mean. Like what are examples of pots we don't intend on continuing on when we hit? I feel like usually when we hit we want to continue, lol. If you mean "should we weight our opening range towards value hands with this short of a stack so we can hit top pair and stack comfortably?", I would say yes. If I'm opening a hand here it's usually because it's a value hand and not an implied odds hand and I intend on stacking with top pairs because I feel like I'll be ahead of their top pair hand range.

DennisG

Vekked wrote: »

I'm still not entirely sure what you mean. Like what are examples of pots we don't intend on continuing on when we hit? I feel like usually when we hit we want to continue, lol.

Yeah, like here for example...we hit our top pair, and we should be good against these guys, but yet, we are gonna fold if the action is too much.. I guess what I mean, is, with only 20bb left..can/should we be opening A10 (for ex.) if we plan on folding to action in front if our plan was to check raise?

If you mean "should we weight our opening range towards value hands with this short of a stack so we can hit top pair and stack comfortably?", I would say yes. If I'm opening a hand here it's usually because it's a value hand and not an implied odds hand and I intend on stacking with top pairs because I feel like I'll be ahead of their top pair hand range.

Is our A10 hand (and what range with 20bb) good enough for this scenario?

Maybe I am just feeling like 20bb's is just getting too small and I need to make a move...I know 10bb is standard shove/fold but with the aggressiveness and necessary FE required in the online game today (as more players are opening up ranges and call charts are getting wider/more effective) should we be looking to make 20 bigs the new 10? Maybe just food for thought...maybe way out to lunch..maybe wayyy over-thinking and just need to get back to basics.

Am I making any sense or should I be visiting yoda at 4:20 or will this make it worse?

Vekked

DennisG wrote: »

Yeah, like here for example...we hit our top pair, and we should be good against these guys, but yet, we are gonna fold if the action is too much.. I guess what I mean, is, with only 20bb left..can/should we be opening A10 (for ex.) if we plan on folding to action in front if our plan was to check raise?

Like I said before, pots odds + equity is always going to dictate whether we should find a fold, regardless of our stack. If we face action such that it's clear we only beat the very bottom of peoples' ranges then we should obv fold since we need like 4:1 or better to get it in. We shouldn't choose our opening hands based on if we EVER have to fold or not, we should choose them based on whether our pairs will usually be good in a heads up scenario. If we flop an ace on A72 are we usually good in a heads up pot here? Probably yes, because I imagine randoms after us will call with a bunch of worse aces and stuff. Does this mean we have to stack when we flop an ace 4-way if there's a bunch of heat? No. There's rarely ever a situation where we're stacking 1 pair vs. 2 other opponents putting in chips unless we have the top of our opening range (AK/AQ type hands). Most of the time we're not going to run into that though, usually we get 1 villain or take it down uncontested, and the few times we do get multiway it's rare that more than 1 villain will be putting in a raise before it gets back to us. We shouldn't be too worried about worst case scenarios.

Maybe I am just feeling like 20bb's is just getting too small and I need to make a move...I know 10bb is standard shove/fold but with the aggressiveness and necessary FE required in the online game today (as more players are opening up ranges and call charts are getting wider/more effective) should we be looking to make 20 bigs the new 10? Maybe just food for thought...maybe way out to lunch..maybe wayyy over-thinking and just need to get back to basics.

We do have 27BB here which is plenty of chips to be raising standard and wayyy too many to be open jamming here. Sure you can jam 20BB in some spots but you shouldn't do it just b/c you fear playing some post flop. Just try to figure out what lines are +EV and eliminate the ones that aren't, then try to figure out which are more +EV. Sometimes jamming 20BB is more profitable than opening normal, sometimes raise/folding is more profitable than jamming 12BB.

DennisG

ok, confirmed. I am too spewy in some of these 20-30 bb spots. ty sir.