uber aggro opponent late game

reibs

So I had 55 hands on villian and he had some crazy stats... 53/45 with 35% 3bet. He was wild to say the least.... My question overall is how you deal with such aggression from opponents late in the game. A lot of my late game chips come from opening light in good spots and if contended, taking it down with a cbet (not all situations obv). So when a guy sits at the table and just 3 and 4 bets everything, what do? Surely the answer cannot be wait for AJ+ is it? I dont wanna let buddy just steal from me all day and night....

When he 3 bets me, I know Im miles ahead of his range, so I 4 bet for value. When he 5 bets, I still think Im way ahead of him, but hey even a blind squirrel ... I didn't want to 6 bet cus I knew he would jam his entire range now and I would be left with a fold or a crying call for a HUGE stack... not really what I want. Is bet sizing okay?

PokerStars Game #63947012169: Tournament #407787889, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (1000/2000) - 2011/06/29 21:36:48 ET
Table '407787889 31' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: REEBS77 (134963 in chips)
Seat 2: rewindurmind (69012 in chips)
Seat 3: Shunzao (34736 in chips)
Seat 4: Black Ptah (31929 in chips)
Seat 5: tobededope (124428 in chips)
Seat 6: ESTingu (138004 in chips)
Seat 7: cardcom22 (38417 in chips)
Seat 9: DiscoSuperSt (20587 in chips)
REEBS77: posts the ante 250
rewindurmind: posts the ante 250
Shunzao: posts the ante 250
Black Ptah: posts the ante 250
tobededope: posts the ante 250
ESTingu: posts the ante 250
cardcom22: posts the ante 250
DiscoSuperSt: posts the ante 250
ESTingu: posts small blind 1000
cardcom22: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to REEBS77 [8s Ac]
DiscoSuperSt: folds
REEBS77: raises 2000 to 4000
rewindurmind: folds
Shunzao: folds
Black Ptah: folds
tobededope: raises 6000 to 10000
ESTingu: folds
cardcom22: folds
REEBS77: raises 9999 to 19999
bosi74 is connected
tobededope: raises 10001 to 30000
REEBS77: calls 10001
*** FLOP *** [Qc Kc As]
REEBS77: checks
tobededope: bets 94178 and is all-in
REEBS77: ???

I checked the flop to get his Kx, Qx hands to put a bet, but I didn't expect a jam right out the gate....I assumed that the jam meant we can rule out two pairs/sets. no?

I think I almost timed out thinking about it. Are we good enough here to stack off???

DennisG

ughh..I hate these spots/players. This is a leak of mine, I am sure, but I jam it in here against these type of guys. With as aggro as he is, I think he is jamming any Kx or Qx. Our luck he probably has KQ this time...lol

I really need to work on the "I will show you..." attitude.

JohnnieH

Great example of how aggression can disguise a hand.

I jam in this situation and hope for the best.

betrthanphil

i dont like the open here with a8os, i just muck it. Against an aggro guy your playing right into him by raising utg +1 with a8os then 3 betting it, if it was like CO vs blind or something its fine, but here i dont like it at all. This pot is way to big for a8os, there has got to be a better spot for you.

reibs

betrthanphil wrote: »

i dont like the open here with a8os, i just muck it. Against an aggro guy your playing right into him by raising utg +1 with a8os then 3 betting it, if it was like CO vs blind or something its fine, but here i dont like it at all. This pot is way to big for a8os, there has got to be a better spot for you.

I agree looking at it here, A8o looks like it should be a fold.

It was pretty much the complete bottom end of my opening range. Usually its like A10o+ or maybe even AJo+ but at this table, everyone was letting this guy run them over, and they were all playing pretty snug. I have no problem releasing it if someone else 3bets me....except this maniac.

reibs

JohnnieH wrote: »

Great example of how aggression can disguise a hand.

I jam in this situation and hope for the best.

Just wait till you see the results....I will post later this afternoon once I get a few more opinions.

reibs

okay no more replies yet so I will just post results.

*** FLOP *** [Qc Kc As]
REEBS77: checks
tobededope: bets 94178 and is all-in
REEBS77: folds
Uncalled bet (94178) returned to tobededope
tobededope collected 65000 from pot
tobededope: shows [6h 9c] (high card Ace)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 65000 | Rake 0
Board [Qc Kc As]
Seat 1: REEBS77 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: rewindurmind folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Shunzao folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Black Ptah folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: tobededope (button) collected (65000)
Seat 6: ESTingu (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: cardcom22 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: DiscoSuperSt folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Reason I posted is I think this is a huge leak of mine...I didnt steam at all, more or less rolled my eyes and said I KNEW IT!! I cant sh!t away this many chips. I knew I was ahead, and I almost called....If Im gunna get this many chips in the pot, I think I kinda have to stack off here. Or else dont get this many chips in there.... :-[

Then again, I obviously had him absolutely crushed, had a good read on him, just couldn't pull the trigger. Is this the bigger leak?

Thoughts? Does everyone fold A8o here in ep?

BTP, what would your opening range be? And how do you react with that range to this guys 3 bet?

betrthanphil

well once you get decide to get involved, I dont think you should fold the flop to this massive shove. But when I know there are maniacs that are gonna 3 bet like this, I really tighten my range in ep. Like A10 i might even fold. So like Ajos+, a10s+ kjs+ kqos+ 77+. Its gonna be tough to have position when raising ep and even more so when the maniac has the button you know he will prob get involved. Since your stacks are the 2 biggest at the table you should be trying to get involed with him when you have position. Thats my thoughts on it anyways

reibs

betrthanphil wrote: »

well once you get decide to get involved, I dont think you should fold the flop to this massive shove. But when I know there are maniacs that are gonna 3 bet like this, I really tighten my range in ep. Like A10 i might even fold. So like Ajos+, a10s+ kjs+ kqos+ 77+. Its gonna be tough to have position when raising ep and even more so when the maniac has the button you know he will prob get involved. Since your stacks are the 2 biggest at the table you should be trying to get involed with him when you have position. Thats my thoughts on it anyways

Much appreciated thoughts they are!

Ok so with maniacs behind, tighten right up.... God that sounds so boring! :mad:

Thanks....I definitely need to look at what everyone else's positions are related to stacks before I open.... Don't do that enough.

Vekked

Ok this hand is really butchered, but it's not uncommon at all, I see a lot of players play hands like this even at the highest stakes and it blows my mind that they're still doing it.

When you play any hand, ever, your thought process should be logical and consistent from start to finish. Let's start at his 3-bet and work back since I think this is the easiest part of the hand to illustrate this point. When he 3-bets you say "I know Im miles ahead of his range", in other words you were able to predict him 3-betting a ton based on how he's been playing, yet you're still opening a very loose range in early position? Your thought process isn't really consistent here, since either people are tight enough that opening here is profitable, or loose enough that opening here is not profitable. If you predict that someone is 3-betting you extremely wide, then your first adjustment should be to tighten up your opening range so his 3-bets aren't profitable. You need to plan out your strategy before you play a hand, not click buttons and then react once you're in a situation that you shouldn't be in.

So yea, the leak here is that your line is inconsistent; this can't be both a profitable open and profitable to continue vs. a 3-bet.

You also go on to say "When he 3 bets me, I know Im miles ahead of his range, so I 4 bet for value". This is another leak, since being miles ahead of someone's 3-betting range actually has no direct bearing on whether you should 4-bet. Someone could be 3-betting 95% of hands, but if they only continue with AA when you 4-bet, then 4-betting anything but AA for value makes no sense. Likewise, when you're miles ahead of his 3-betting range with A8o, this tells me nothing about whether 4-betting is good or bad, it tells me that calling is good. The information I need to know in order to 4-bet for value is not whether or not he 3-bets me with worse hands, it's whether or not he continues vs. a 4-bet with worse hands.

So, the leak here is assuming that your value 4-betting range is based on their 3-betting range; it doesn't matter what they 3-bet, it matters what they continue with when you 4-bet.

Those are the main leaks here. From then on it's mostly compound errors based on the earlier mistakes in the hand, but if I somehow I woke up facing a 5-bet in this spot holding A8o I would be calling ~0-2% of the time (including misclicks), and jamming or folding the rest. If you have a good enough read to know that call > fold, then jam > call > fold, but I would virtually never 6-bet shove A8o vs. someone so I would seriously question whetheryour read was actually good enough to know that if it was the case.

Vekked

I also agree with BTP's opening range in this spot, I'd open pretty much an identical range, may consider folding 77 and opening QJs or something though.

Richard~

If you're so sure about your read 4bet with the intention of 6bet shoving, what do you expect to hit with A8 OOP? ^^'

Also, if you can profitably 6bet shove A8 this is probably the most profitable open spot ever

Edit: there's also always a chance that calling the 3bet might be bad if we're completely lost postflop and end up calling too many bets on dry boards or folding too much to bets on dry boards. Especially if his bets truly means no information for us

Vekked

Richard~ wrote: »

Also, if you can profitably 6bet shove A8 this is probably the most profitable open spot ever

If you can profitably 6-bet shove A8 this is the most profitable open spot ever IF you opened in order to induce a 3-bet to induce a 5-bet and 6-bet shove A8, but no one actually has that plan ever. The only times A8o is actually a +EV open is because everyone is so tight at the table they're only playing back with top 5% or something, and not because someone's so loose that we can get it in for 60BB profitably vs. them.

reibs

Vekked wrote: »

Ok this hand is really butchered, but it's not uncommon at all, I see a lot of players play hands like this even at the highest stakes and it blows my mind that they're still doing it.

When you play any hand, ever, your thought process should be logical and consistent from start to finish. Let's start at his 3-bet and work back since I think this is the easiest part of the hand to illustrate this point. When he 3-bets you say "I know Im miles ahead of his range", in other words you were able to predict him 3-betting a ton based on how he's been playing, yet you're still opening a very loose range in early position? Your thought process isn't really consistent here, since either people are tight enough that opening here is profitable, or loose enough that opening here is not profitable. If you predict that someone is 3-betting you extremely wide, then your first adjustment should be to tighten up your opening range so his 3-bets aren't profitable. You need to plan out your strategy before you play a hand, not click buttons and then react once you're in a situation that you shouldn't be in.

So yea, the leak here is that your line is inconsistent; this can't be both a profitable open and profitable to continue vs. a 3-bet.

You also go on to say "When he 3 bets me, I know Im miles ahead of his range, so I 4 bet for value". This is another leak, since being miles ahead of someone's 3-betting range actually has no direct bearing on whether you should 4-bet. Someone could be 3-betting 95% of hands, but if they only continue with AA when you 4-bet, then 4-betting anything but AA for value makes no sense. Likewise, when you're miles ahead of his 3-betting range with A8o, this tells me nothing about whether 4-betting is good or bad, it tells me that calling is good. The information I need to know in order to 4-bet for value is not whether or not he 3-bets me with worse hands, it's whether or not he continues vs. a 4-bet with worse hands.

So, the leak here is assuming that your value 4-betting range is based on their 3-betting range; it doesn't matter what they 3-bet, it matters what they continue with when you 4-bet.

Those are the main leaks here. From then on it's mostly compound errors based on the earlier mistakes in the hand, but if I somehow I woke up facing a 5-bet in this spot holding A8o I would be calling ~0-2% of the time (including misclicks), and jamming or folding the rest. If you have a good enough read to know that call > fold, then jam > call > fold, but I would virtually never 6-bet shove A8o vs. someone so I would seriously question whetheryour read was actually good enough to know that if it was the case.

Okay well I need to take a breath, read again and post....:D

Richard~ wrote: »

If you're so sure about your read 4bet with the intention of 6bet shoving, what do you expect to hit with A8 OOP? ^^'

See I don't usually get in these deepstack raising wars, except maybe bvb the odd time. So its uncomfortable to me. However I was hoping someone would say this cus looking back I definitely feel I chickened out. :mad2: I couldn't really ask for much more with the flop could I?

reibs

Vekked wrote: »

If you can profitably 6-bet shove A8 this is the most profitable open spot ever IF you opened in order to induce a 3-bet to induce a 5-bet and 6-bet shove A8, but no one actually has that plan ever. The only times A8o is actually a +EV open is because everyone is so tight at the table they're only playing back with top 5% or something, and not because someone's so loose that we can get it in for 60BB profitably vs. them.

This was kinda weighing into my decision. The rest of that table were nitting it up for a few orbits now. He was continuously pounding on anything and no one was doing anything about it. I think once I started recognizing that I was looking for anything (even a bit outside my typ opening range) to catch him with. Need to just let it come to me, rather than forcing it...

I agree with btps typ open range in that spot too, and that is typically what I use (maybe minus KJs even) ...

Vekked

Even if the rest of the table is pretty nitty, having 1 maniac 3-betting enough to make us consider playing back with one of the worst hands we should be opening is enough to make it an open fold. Your table needs a vpip of like under 10% to be opening here profitably probably.

reibs

Vekked wrote: »

When you play any hand, ever, your thought process should be logical and consistent from start to finish. Let's start at his 3-bet and work back since I think this is the easiest part of the hand to illustrate this point. When he 3-bets you say "I know Im miles ahead of his range", in other words you were able to predict him 3-betting a ton based on how he's been playing, yet you're still opening a very loose range in early position? Your thought process isn't really consistent here, since either people are tight enough that opening here is profitable, or loose enough that opening here is not profitable. If you predict that someone is 3-betting you extremely wide, then your first adjustment should be to tighten up your opening range so his 3-bets aren't profitable. You need to plan out your strategy before you play a hand, not click buttons and then react once you're in a situation that you shouldn't be in.

Ya I was doing it backwards I guess... Not that that surprises me at all.... My first instinct was "if he is widening way up then I can open up a bit wider than I am normally, and it would still be profitable." At the same time I knew that the rest of the table was playing tight, so if it by chance got past the idiot then I would probably be picking up the blinds uncontested.

But I can see how wrong that looks now. Thanks.

Vekked wrote: »

So yea, the leak here is that your line is inconsistent; this can't be both a profitable open and profitable to continue vs. a 3-bet.

You also go on to say "When he 3 bets me, I know Im miles ahead of his range, so I 4 bet for value". This is another leak, since being miles ahead of someone's 3-betting range actually has no direct bearing on whether you should 4-bet. Someone could be 3-betting 95% of hands, but if they only continue with AA when you 4-bet, then 4-betting anything but AA for value makes no sense. Likewise, when you're miles ahead of his 3-betting range with A8o, this tells me nothing about whether 4-betting is good or bad, it tells me that calling is good. The information I need to know in order to 4-bet for value is not whether or not he 3-bets me with worse hands, it's whether or not he continues vs. a 4-bet with worse hands.

So, the leak here is assuming that your value 4-betting range is based on their 3-betting range; it doesn't matter what they 3-bet, it matters what they continue with when you 4-bet.

Okay, this turned on a lightbulb... I know I was subconciously sorta doing this in my head, but didn't think about it completely like this.

Vekked wrote: »

so I would seriously question whetheryour read was actually good enough to know that if it was the case.

With all due respect good sir, even if my line of thought was off, my read was bang on - and I knew it... If you looked back through some of my db, you would realize that this play is just sooooooo outside my norm, that it had to have come from a strong read. I just have an issue with trusting my reads when they are for deep stacks.... And no I will not be trying this at home (again).


GUYS, THE FOG IS CLEARING...... SLOOOOOOOWLY