Limit Hold'em Tournaments
As of late, I've done well in no limit tournaments while my limit tournament results have suffered. Earlier in my short poker career the reverse was true. After analyzing the crucial hands I've played in tournaments recently, I've realized that I'm consistently busting out of limit tournaments when there is approximately 20% of the field remaining. I've noticed that there is a discrete stage in limit tournaments where a huge proportion of the field busts out in a short span whereas this doesn't occur so much in no limit tournaments. My problem is that I build up my stack playing solidly for many, many hands over the course of the tournament and then I tend to lose most of my stack on one or two hands (particularly when I'm short stacked or averaged stacked). It almost feels like my results are dictated by whether or not my strong hands hold up in these "crucial moments" that, unfortunately, represent only a small proportion of the tournament. However, I feel like that same precariousness doesn't necessarily exist in no-limit tournaments when you can decide how aggressive you want to be for each bet (e.g., going all-in).
Here are two examples of very memorable hands from limit hold'em tourneys. I still think a lot about these pivotal hands.
1. Canadian Poker Tour event, October 31; Limit Hold'em; $100 + rebuys; Cash Casino in Calgary.
I play very well for about three hours. I survive getting aces cracked once and kings cracked three times yet still build up an above average stack before going card dead. No rebuys and one add-on. Two tables remaining. Final table pays. I'm well below average in chips with 5500 but about equal to five or six other players still in the hunt. Blinds are 500/1000. I'm on the button w/ AQo. An extremely loose, aggressive player in middle position raises and an extremely loose, passive player in the cut-off calls. I call too [ERROR #1, SHOULD HAVE RERAISED OR FOLDED]. The SB folds. The BB calls. (Pot is 8500). Flop is 6h Js Qh. BB checks, middle-position bets, cut-off calls, I raise, BB calls, middle-position calls, cut-off calls. (Pot is 16500). Turn is Jd. They all check to me. Now what? I have 2500 left in front of me. I figure someone must have hit a third jack. If I check in position, someone will bet the river and I'll have a tough decision to make. Crud. I decide to bet [ERROR #2, I KNOW SOMEONE HAS A SET OF JACKS, I SHOULD HAVE CHECKED AND FOLDED ON THE RIVER]. Everyone calls again. River is 3s. The BB bets out, middle-position calls, cut-off throws her cards across the table saying she missed an open-ended straight and flush draw, and I call for my last 500 [ERROR #3 -- WHY? I GAVE UP]. BB has J8h (he wasn't going anywhere after flopping middle pair and a flush draw). Middle-position has KQc. Clearly, if I reraised preflop, the BB probably would have laid down J8h and I would have won the pot.
2. Online tournament, $25 limit freezeout. Late in the tournament I have a slightly below average stack of 9000. Blinds are 300/600. It's folded around to me in the small blind and I have ATc. The BB has been voraciously defending his blinds. I raise, he calls. Flop is Ah 5d 9h. I bet he calls. Turn is 7d. I bet again and now he raises. This puts me in a spot. I've got notes on this player that he is very tricky and tries a lot of bluffs but I can't put him on a hand here. I really felt that my pair of aces was good here and I thought that he might be representing an ace, thinking that I had raised preflop w/ a pocket pair or two big cards. So I called [WRONG]. The river was Td. So this gave me top-two pair but made a diamond flush possible. Still, if he raised me with two-pair on the turn, I'm thinking I have him beat now. I also thought that if I checked to him he might check because he was afraid of the flush, so I bet out. He raised me again. Crunk. At this point, the pot is 12000. I have 3600 left and I'm getting 10:1 to call for 1200 more. So I call. He has 6h 8d (he hit a gutshot straight on the turn). I could complain about how this was a bad beat and how his preflop/flop calls were asinine, but that won't accomplish anything. The point is, I was beat for most of my stack on one hand in a very crucial part of a tournament.
My question is, how do you approach this crucial stage of limit tournaments when getting involved in a hand usually means you are putting most of your stack at risk? Would you have been able to get away from these hands? In a no-limit tournament, I believe things would have played out much differently -- but it appears I'm having difficulty making the adjustment to limit situations. Thanks in advance for your responses.
Phil
Here are two examples of very memorable hands from limit hold'em tourneys. I still think a lot about these pivotal hands.
1. Canadian Poker Tour event, October 31; Limit Hold'em; $100 + rebuys; Cash Casino in Calgary.
I play very well for about three hours. I survive getting aces cracked once and kings cracked three times yet still build up an above average stack before going card dead. No rebuys and one add-on. Two tables remaining. Final table pays. I'm well below average in chips with 5500 but about equal to five or six other players still in the hunt. Blinds are 500/1000. I'm on the button w/ AQo. An extremely loose, aggressive player in middle position raises and an extremely loose, passive player in the cut-off calls. I call too [ERROR #1, SHOULD HAVE RERAISED OR FOLDED]. The SB folds. The BB calls. (Pot is 8500). Flop is 6h Js Qh. BB checks, middle-position bets, cut-off calls, I raise, BB calls, middle-position calls, cut-off calls. (Pot is 16500). Turn is Jd. They all check to me. Now what? I have 2500 left in front of me. I figure someone must have hit a third jack. If I check in position, someone will bet the river and I'll have a tough decision to make. Crud. I decide to bet [ERROR #2, I KNOW SOMEONE HAS A SET OF JACKS, I SHOULD HAVE CHECKED AND FOLDED ON THE RIVER]. Everyone calls again. River is 3s. The BB bets out, middle-position calls, cut-off throws her cards across the table saying she missed an open-ended straight and flush draw, and I call for my last 500 [ERROR #3 -- WHY? I GAVE UP]. BB has J8h (he wasn't going anywhere after flopping middle pair and a flush draw). Middle-position has KQc. Clearly, if I reraised preflop, the BB probably would have laid down J8h and I would have won the pot.
2. Online tournament, $25 limit freezeout. Late in the tournament I have a slightly below average stack of 9000. Blinds are 300/600. It's folded around to me in the small blind and I have ATc. The BB has been voraciously defending his blinds. I raise, he calls. Flop is Ah 5d 9h. I bet he calls. Turn is 7d. I bet again and now he raises. This puts me in a spot. I've got notes on this player that he is very tricky and tries a lot of bluffs but I can't put him on a hand here. I really felt that my pair of aces was good here and I thought that he might be representing an ace, thinking that I had raised preflop w/ a pocket pair or two big cards. So I called [WRONG]. The river was Td. So this gave me top-two pair but made a diamond flush possible. Still, if he raised me with two-pair on the turn, I'm thinking I have him beat now. I also thought that if I checked to him he might check because he was afraid of the flush, so I bet out. He raised me again. Crunk. At this point, the pot is 12000. I have 3600 left and I'm getting 10:1 to call for 1200 more. So I call. He has 6h 8d (he hit a gutshot straight on the turn). I could complain about how this was a bad beat and how his preflop/flop calls were asinine, but that won't accomplish anything. The point is, I was beat for most of my stack on one hand in a very crucial part of a tournament.
My question is, how do you approach this crucial stage of limit tournaments when getting involved in a hand usually means you are putting most of your stack at risk? Would you have been able to get away from these hands? In a no-limit tournament, I believe things would have played out much differently -- but it appears I'm having difficulty making the adjustment to limit situations. Thanks in advance for your responses.
Phil
Comments
"Error #1": Based on your description of the players involved in the pot, I would re-raise here. I'd often just call with only AQo against what I felt was a legitimate raise, but you seem to have no reason to think any of your opponents so far has a hand. The general idea in limit tournaments is that you are absolutely abused for making "bread and butter" EV errors, particularly pre-flop.* Abuse your opponents here.
"Error #2": Check here. At this point you could be losing, and with so many players calling the flop bet, the field probably has almost half of the deck as outs against you even if you have the best hand right now. This is a great example of being a small favorite or huge dog, and even if you're lucky enough to have one, it's an EV edge not worth pushing in a tournament.
"Error #3": When the river bricks, you have enough of a hand and enough of a pot to make calling one bet correct (if you feel it is unlikely to be raised, which is guaranteed in this example). You also did not face a check-raise on the turn**, which I would have expected from a J on a draw happy board. Folding on the river here would be quite wrong I think.
Hand #2
For this hand I'd play the pre-flop, flop and turn as you did. Giving up your hand for the turn raise if far too weak heads-up against what you consider a tricky player.
I'd check and call the river. Your tricky opponent is likely to bet the river in almost all cases, i.e. he missed his draw, you just outdrew his 2 pair, you were drawing dead on the river, you were always winning against his 1 pair.
The distribution of your opponent's hands favours the chances that your hand is good. Folding is out of the question.
My feeling is that it is a very close decision between the other options: check-call, bet-call, or check-raise. Again, being a tournament, I like the lowest variance choice, but I can see merit to all 3 plays here.
Don't get bogged down by the result of this hand. This is a basic heads-up hand (whether or not you make 2 pair on the river) against a tricky opponent with an atypical result.
ScottyZ
*As opposed to NL where you are primarily abused by making errors in your judgements of your opponents' hand(s), such as bluffing into a made hand, letting your opponent draw too cheaply, etc.
**A major blunder by the BB I think, even with the combined strong hand & strong draw. The pot is enormous, and worth protecting. The best turn play for the BB would be simply betting out IMO, in case the original flop bettor decides to check the turn behind you. (See "Error #2".) The check-call from the BB is completely hopeless, and a great example of "WPT on TV" syndrome.
Thanks for the reply Scotty,
I definitely agree that a reraise preflop would have been the best play. Man, I'm such a good player after-the-fact
Regards,
Phil
The idea I was trying to get at was that in limit tournaments (as opposed to NL), good players cannot often take the worst of it in the early betting rounds in an attempt to "outplay" their opponents in later rounds. Good NL players can (and often probably should) definitely do this.
I guess I just made a poor attempt at describing the well known "implied odds are more important in NL than in limit" idea.
The reason I liked re-raising in your specific example is to punish your loose opponents for playing what may be speculative hands.
ScottyZ
Hand #1 -- I am not sure you played that hand THAT badly. I do not hate your pre-flop call. It's OK. I like your play on the flop. On the turn, I agree that there is a BIG danger. I probably check and see which way the wind blows on the river. Someone it a HUGE dog and it might be me.
Not really... until the turn HE was beat for lots of his chips at a crucial point in the tournament. When he raises you on the turn... I probably fold. He might be moving you off top pair, but ... he might not. Consequence of not are very unappealing.
At crunch time you need to have "the goods" stand up. I suppose, because it is crunch time, you may find that your opponents are more reliable and you could fold more.
In my own case I have noticed that I tend to overplay the game at crunch time. I steal too much and convert my opponents usually bad calls into good calls. In other words, my play MAKES their play good. I have, for the most part, become a lot more cautous at crunch time.