Party Poker observations
Hey did anyone notice the following on Party Poker.
If you have a strong hand preflop like QQ or AK, and you bet preflop you rarely get a good flop and if you limp in, you hit the monster?
Maybe its my imagination, but its like PP rewards you for not betting it...lol
Also, you seem to get a monster flop 1 hand behind. ie. if the flop for hand 1 is 995, in the 2nd hand you get 95. I find its weird.
Also, played on the play money tables and people say other people have scanners. I've even been accused of having one because i took a few million off of some poor players.
What are these scanners, and if they exist do they really work?? I dont think they would.
If you have a strong hand preflop like QQ or AK, and you bet preflop you rarely get a good flop and if you limp in, you hit the monster?
Maybe its my imagination, but its like PP rewards you for not betting it...lol
Also, you seem to get a monster flop 1 hand behind. ie. if the flop for hand 1 is 995, in the 2nd hand you get 95. I find its weird.
Also, played on the play money tables and people say other people have scanners. I've even been accused of having one because i took a few million off of some poor players.
What are these scanners, and if they exist do they really work?? I dont think they would.
Comments
I'm not sure what they mean by "scanners," but I find that people look for any reason to justify their poor play...I think we're all guilty of it at some point
As for your comment on flops, I think you're probably just giving too much meaning to coincidental, yet random, events. I'm not saying that I haven't noticed things like that (i.e. "man...can I combine my hand on this table with the board from that one?"), but they are just coincidences.
Regards,
Derek
Don't worry about play money games. There are too many maniacs to make any judgements on play there. I almost think that the providers would put a bunch of bad bots on each play money table to ensure the real players win tons of play dough. In that way, they would be encouraged to start playing for real. Oops! There's my cynical side coming out again.
Not weird at all. The fact that you do not have certain hole cards makes it more likely that they come up. That is, a flop of 995 is considerably less likely to occur when you have the hole cards 95 compared to when you have the hole cards A4 (for example).
Also, related to g_gecco's point, this sort of "huge" hitting probably actually occurs about 1% of the time, but the emotional impact of the occurance is significantly greater than the other 99% of the times you don't "lag flop" a boat or better. So, it's the good old "rare but memorable events seem more common than they actually are" idea.
The statements
"I play poker for real money at online poker site X."
and
"I think that online poker site X is rigged."
do not belong together in a sane person's mind.
ScottyZ
The thing you must realise is that all this "weird" stuff that you are talking about with the exeption of "scanners" which is a load of garbage, all goes on in real poker games. I mean I cant tell you how many times I have AKo preflop, raise it and dont flop anything and have to lay the hand down. Thats poker, get used to it.
so 589 to your 67, 733 to your 73, KQJ to your AT.
So it seems like it happens, but you also remember the 1 time it hits vs the 9 times it didnt. I would suggest it is selective memory at play.
As for the one hand late, I have noticed that ALOT.
I disagree with Scotty as that you see it cause the cards aren't on the flop, but
as I am playing PP NL right now;
FLOP 578S
4-6 suited,
flop KQJ
AT -
flop 998
72
FLOP AA9
AK
FLOP AKT (Actually won this one)
next hand 99
But I think I see this about 40% of the time, but it comes in runs and about 5-6 hands down I know Im going to flop a monster.
Then again, it could just be my glasses
Also once I had A 10 on one table that I played and 7 8 suited on the other table that I played. On the A 10 table the flop was 4 5 6 and on the 7 8 table the flop was A 10 10. Made me chuckle.
Thing is though I ended up playing about 300-400 hands so while those situations stood out, I would expect to have a couple of stand out situations during that session anyways. If I had none that would really stand out
Another thing that contributes to the rigged/bizarre theories is that at the lower limits on Party people will play almost any hand all the way and that can lead to some very strange results like a 2h 8 h calling a raise preflop and then calling with a flop of Ac ks 9h to see him get a runner runner flush.
This point is right on.
More crazy drawout attempts = more crazy drawouts.
ScottyZ
selective memory.
$1/$2 Hold'em - Thursday, January 20, 20:56:55 EDT 2005
Table Mint Machine (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Audaddy1 ( $67.75 )
Seat 3: cuppyIU ( $66.25 )
Seat 4: PhilzyPDX ( $62.96 )
Seat 5: flynnc20 ( $37.5 )
Seat 6: PlayerKing ( $41.59 )
Seat 7: GulfBreeze ( $67.75 )
Seat 8: HHNLC ( $111 )
Seat 9: ThanksMrGray ( $15.75 )
Seat 10: ichinisan ( $57 )
Seat 1: Monteroy ( $49 )
Monteroy posts small blind [$0.5].
Audaddy1 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Monteroy [ As Ac ]
cuppyIU folds.
PhilzyPDX folds.
flynnc20 calls [$1].
PlayerKing folds.
GulfBreeze calls [$1].
HHNLC calls [$1].
ThanksMrGray folds.
ichinisan folds.
Monteroy raises [$1.5].
Audaddy1 calls [$1].
flynnc20 calls [$1].
GulfBreeze calls [$1].
HHNLC folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, Ah, Th ]
Monteroy bets [$1].
Audaddy1 calls [$1].
flynnc20 raises [$2].
GulfBreeze folds.
Monteroy calls [$1].
Audaddy1 calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
Monteroy checks.
Audaddy1 bets [$2].
flynnc20 calls [$2].
Monteroy calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
Monteroy checks.
Audaddy1 bets [$2].
flynnc20 calls [$2].
Monteroy folds.
Audaddy1 shows [ 4h, Kd ] a straight, ten to ace.
flynnc20 doesn't show [ Tc, Td ] three of a kind, tens.
Audaddy1 wins $24 from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
10 10 guy went nuts for about 5 minutes even though the irony was that the K4 guy saved him a bunch of money (unless he hit his one out). Was annoying folding those aces but 2 hands later
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Monteroy [ Kc Ah ]
flynnc20 calls [$1].
PlayerKing raises [$2].
HHNLC folds.
ThanksMrGray calls [$2].
ichinisan folds.
RolfstKing has joined the table.
Monteroy calls [$2].
Audaddy1 calls [$2].
cuppyIU folds.
PhilzyPDX folds.
flynnc20 calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, Qc, 7c ]
flynnc20 checks.
PlayerKing bets [$1].
ThanksMrGray folds.
Monteroy raises [$2].
Audaddy1 calls [$2].
flynnc20 folds.
PlayerKing calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h ]
PlayerKing checks.
Monteroy bets [$2].
Audaddy1 calls [$2].
PlayerKing calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
flynnc20: who holds with king four
PlayerKing checks.
Monteroy checks.
Audaddy1 checks.
PlayerKing shows [ Js, Ks ] a pair of sixes.
Monteroy shows [ Kc, Ah ] two pairs, aces and sixes.
Audaddy1 doesn't show [ 9c, Qd ] two pairs, queens and sixes.
Monteroy wins $22.5 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and sixes.
and this hand happened shortly after
***** Hand History for Game 1466092234 *****
$1/$2 Hold'em - Thursday, January 20, 21:08:41 EDT 2005
Table Mint Machine (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: cuppyIU ( $61.25 )
Seat 4: PhilzyPDX ( $59.21 )
Seat 5: flynnc20 ( $36.25 )
Seat 6: PlayerKing ( $37.59 )
Seat 8: HHNLC ( $96.5 )
Seat 9: ThanksMrGray ( $34 )
Seat 1: Monteroy ( $57.5 )
Seat 7: RolfstKing ( $59.25 )
Seat 2: goop778 ( $46 )
Seat 10: wannano6 ( $24 )
PhilzyPDX posts small blind [$0.5].
flynnc20 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Monteroy [ Ah Kd ]
PlayerKing folds.
RolfstKing folds.
HHNLC folds.
ThanksMrGray calls [$1].
wannano6 folds.
Monteroy raises [$2].
goop778 folds.
cuppyIU folds.
PhilzyPDX folds.
flynnc20 folds.
ThanksMrGray calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, 6d, 4h ]
ThanksMrGray checks.
Monteroy bets [$1].
ThanksMrGray calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]
ThanksMrGray checks.
Monteroy bets [$2].
ThanksMrGray calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
ThanksMrGray checks.
Monteroy bets [$2].
ThanksMrGray calls [$2].
Monteroy shows [ Ah, Kd ] a pair of aces.
ThanksMrGray doesn't show [ 2d, Jd ] a pair of jacks.
Monteroy wins $14.75 from the main pot with a pair of aces.
There are a ton of Audaddys and ThanksMrGrays on that site at the low levels. The silly hands they play and outdraw you on are frustrating but they will also play any hand or draw all the way and pay you off well (which people tend to forget). The biggest problem is that they tend to leave or tighten up when they get abused (as 10 10 boy did non stop after his loss) which of course is exactly what is not wanted.
I generally don't give low-limit players credit for being good at reading boards. They could be quite new to the game. They could be multi-tabling, and actively involved in a different table at the moment.
There also may have been a bizzare motivation for the turn bet. The following exchange would not be unreasonable to me, and I've heard this kind of poker "reasoning" before:
SomePlayer: Why would you bet just a QJ on the turn?
Audaddy1: Because I wanted to see if anybody had the straight.
SomePlayer: Oh I see. Thanks for explaining your reasoning. What a ******* dumb **** you are you ******* mother ******.
You don't have to win the hand too often at all (about 8% in this example) to make calling on the river correct.
While the actual results showed that you made the correct FTOP play, IMO making a lot of tough river laydowns like this in low-limit might prove costly in the long run. This is idea is also emphasized in SSH.
ScottyZ
I did think about that fold for a while. I was pretty sure the guy with 10 10 didnt have a king or else he likely would have raised ( though I thought he may have had KJ after the raise on the flop), but it was hard for me to imagine that noone had a king. I was a bit surprised (and then again I wasn't) that it was K 4, but while that guy pretty much was a pure calling station he did tend to actually bet when he had a hand. Granted, I would have felt pretty silly if he flipped over A 4. Shame the board didn't pair because it certainly would have been capped and the calling station would have called all the way with a straight even with 2 raisers and a board that screams full house. Bigger shame that 10 10 boy scared him away within 10 hands with the constant taunting (though I ended up that session up $35 after 30 minutes which I assume is good for 1/2)
I definitely agree, but this is an example of where you have to assess the chances more exactly. Does the bettor* have something like an 80% chance of having a King based on his betting pattern? More like 99%? 50%? 91.666...%?
This is a difficult thing to estimate to be sure, low-limit or not, and it's easy due to the psychology to overestimate the chances that an opponent has drawn out on us, since the draw-outs in the past stand out as the more memorable events.
Tilt may also be a consideration. I've made my share of "tricky" river laydowns in low-limit, only to be shown unimaginable hole cards from the betting and raising players. If you know that making a big laydown attempt the winning hand might get under your skin, you might be incluned to lean towards calling in decisions that are somewhat close.
Hopefully I am not advocating being too much of a calling station. I tend to favor getting away from the small pots early in the hand (*this* is the time when being a non-calling station is vital in LL), and generally paying off on the big pot betting rounds (typically the river) when I have at least some semblance of a hand.
ScottyZ
*Your reasoning that the calling player doesn't have a King makes sense to me.
Things like tilt really don't happen with the non stop untricky 4 table action. You will get some horrid beats but also paid off very well on your good hands (which I always bet or raise since someone always calls). The K 4 hand made me roll my eyes but it was just part of the overall euqation of that playing session and the calling stations made up for it as they usually do.
This hand happened just recently as I was typing this (which is not easy playing multiple tables
***** Hand History for Game 1467000953 *****
$1/$2 Hold'em - Thursday, January 20, 23:54:41 EDT 2005
Table Merry Makers (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: scootster1 ( $43.87 )
Seat 2: ajank002 ( $55.75 )
Seat 4: asenski ( $80.25 )
Seat 8: Jimi ( $15.01 )
Seat 9: rippe47 ( $7.88 )
Seat 10: Monteroy ( $55.75 )
Seat 7: smokey3677 ( $49.75 )
Seat 6: hockem42 ( $64.12 )
Seat 3: bulaQQQ ( $44 )
Seat 5: Laylow2 ( $17 )
asenski posts small blind [$0.5].
Laylow2 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Monteroy [ Ac Ah ]
hockem42 calls [$1].
smokey3677 raises [$2].
Jimi folds.
rippe47 folds.
Monteroy raises [$3].
scootster1 folds.
ajank002 folds.
bulaQQQ folds.
asenski folds.
Laylow2 calls [$2].
hockem42 folds.
smokey3677 calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, Kh, 2c ]
Laylow2 checks.
smokey3677 checks.
Monteroy bets [$1].
Laylow2 calls [$1].
smokey3677 calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
Laylow2 checks.
smokey3677 checks.
Monteroy bets [$2].
Laylow2 calls [$2].
smokey3677 raises [$4].
Monteroy calls [$2].
Laylow2 calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
Laylow2 checks.
smokey3677 bets [$2].
Monteroy calls [$2].
Laylow2 folds.
smokey3677 shows [ 5s, 5c ] three of a kind, fives.
Monteroy shows [ Ac, Ah ] a pair of aces.
smokey3677 wins $28.5 from the main pot with three of a kind, fives.
It annoyed me but what can you do. He will call all the way with 55 to the end whether he hits his 2 outer or not. 19 times they pay you nicely, 1 time they hit. It's just part of the grind.
With internet poker growing as it is and more competition between sites I bet we will see many low limit players playing purely for deposit bonuses and what is interesting is in many ways that's a different style game then the well thought out advanced theory based play. Its more a volume brute force game where corners are cut but made up for by the bonus and it will be interesting to see if future books cover this aspect/style of poker.
Edit: Just a couple of more limit hands to show that very bad players do pay out very well when you get a hand. The first case is even a bit crazy for this but here you go
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Monteroy [ 8d Qh ]
Monteroy folds.
hilite7 calls [$1].
ElvisAli folds.
cloud6475 folds.
pjdean33 folds.
Farmer_Brown folds.
Courts1217 raises [$2].
ocman folds.
mdids calls [$1.5].
Bigwindo folds.
hilite7 calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ As, Kc, Ad ]
mdids checks.
hilite7 bets [$1].
Courts1217 calls [$1].
mdids folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
hilite7 bets [$2].
Courts1217 raises [$4].
hilite7 raises [$4].
Courts1217 raises [$4].
hilite7 calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
hilite7 bets [$2].
Courts1217 raises [$4].
hilite7 raises [$4].
Courts1217 raises [$4].
hilite7 calls [$2].
Courts1217 shows [ Kh, Ac ] a full house, Aces full of kings.
hilite7 doesn't show [ 4s, 4c ] two pairs, aces and fours.
Courts1217 wins $40 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of kings.
He also paid me nicely when I hit (though I guess technically he was winning before then)
Dealt to Monteroy [ Td 9d ]
pjdean33 calls [$1].
Farmer_Brown calls [$1].
Courts1217 folds.
ocman folds.
mdids folds.
Bigwindo folds.
Monteroy calls [$1].
hilite7 raises [$2].
ElvisAli folds.
cloud6475 folds.
pjdean33 calls [$1].
Farmer_Brown calls [$1].
Monteroy calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, Qc, 6d ]
pjdean33 checks.
Farmer_Brown checks.
Monteroy checks.
hilite7 bets [$1].
pjdean33 calls [$1].
Farmer_Brown calls [$1].
Monteroy calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6c ]
pjdean33 checks.
Farmer_Brown checks.
Monteroy checks.
hilite7 bets [$2].
pjdean33 calls [$2].
Farmer_Brown folds.
Monteroy calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
pjdean33 checks.
Monteroy bets [$2].
hilite7 calls [$2].
pjdean33 folds.
Monteroy shows [ Td, 9d ] a flush, ace high.
hilite7 doesn't show [ 9s, Kh ] a pair of sixes.
Monteroy wins $22.5 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
Bad players can get lucky, but eventually they lose to someone.