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betrthanphilbetrthanphil
in MTT Strategy
PokerStars Game #60031601591: Tournament #414010532, $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXI (3500/7000) - 2011/03/29 20:05:43 ET
Table '414010532 3' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: munyonki (180432 in chips)
Seat 2: SiMitchell (163905 in chips)
Seat 3: shaniac (124198 in chips)
Seat 5: linz247 (105566 in chips)
Seat 7: xxericxx1 (99912 in chips)
Seat 8: surfingbodhi (207822 in chips)
Seat 9: BetrThanPhil (488955 in chips)
munyonki: posts the ante 700
SiMitchell: posts the ante 700
shaniac: posts the ante 700
linz247: posts the ante 700
xxericxx1: posts the ante 700
surfingbodhi: posts the ante 700
BetrThanPhil: posts the ante 700
SiMitchell: posts small blind 3500
shaniac: posts big blind 7000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [As 7c]
linz247: folds
xxericxx1: folds
surfingbodhi: folds
BetrThanPhil: raises 8850 to 15850
munyonki: folds
SiMitchell: folds
shaniac: raises 107648 to 123498 and is all-in
BetrThanPhil: ?
I have a very hard time with these spots as I see them coming before I raise. Like i feel like its a sick spot for him. Ive been very aggressive as Ive had the stack to do it. Ive played a 4 bet pot with him. Plus hes a PS pro. Thought? I could be way off and this could be an auto muck, but this is why Im asking, as im not sure what to do here.

Comments

  • UnknownUnknown
    because of your initial bet and antes in play ill bet its almost a call even though were not happy about it. I think its your opening hand that makes this tough. Villain can be quite light if he thinks you might fold. You gotta know before you open whether or not your gonna call a shorts stack big blind. Because hes a short stack pro in the big blind i would only raise with a hand i would call an all in with (unless he has more than 20bbs or so. a5s would be my worst ace i would call with here....
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    So your saying you wouldnt raise in the first place here?
  • DennisGDennisG
    With the fact that you have been aggressive, and you knowing that the bb is aware of this, and is aware of spots like this, that he can very likely shove wide here..BUT..that being said..if he is shoving even 50% of his hands here we are still only flipping...do you want to double up a pro? On the other side of the coin...if we make the call the rest of the table sees we are calling what they might think is "light" and not raise/folding... they will tighten up their shoving ranges allowing you to steal more after, should you win here..

    It is also an easy fold, pick a better spot kinda place...I like our big stack and his small one.

    -gonna go see if I can't find this spot in the Rizen/Apestyles book...lol

    -ok, it seems that investing 1/4 of our stack here with A7o probably isn't optimal..20 or more bb's we can raise and fold to a shove, less than, we can't really fold, it's too weak...seeing him in the bb and knowing he knows the spot is good for a wide shove should probably lend weight to folding pre.
  • getem76getem76
    play the next one, lots of time to play and hope for a better spot, probably the only thing your ahead of here is KQ off suit he would shove with, every other ace is bigger than yours, or a wired pair, smaller than 7s sure...id shove with em anyway
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    So your saying you wouldnt raise in the first place here?


    I think it's o.k., but shaniac knows your most likely raising light, but on the other hand my first "feeling" is to fold.

    But I am interested to hear what wetts and vekked has to say.....
  • VekkedVekked
    He has to be reshipping like 30% of the time for this to be a call. IDK much about shaniac's game other than he's an old school online grinder, so I'm assuming he'll be slightly tighter in these spots if anything, so yea just muck it without much thought. I mean there's rarely gonna be a player who this is a call against, since they have to be pretty much shoves any ace on you, and not many are doing that.

    The open depends on all the players left to act, not just shaniac. If someone else is capable of reshipping light I likely fold this. If shaniac's the only one and the other 2 guys are nits then r/f should be fine. All 3 guys have to be jamming on your >20% avg to make you not show an immediate profit.
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    Vekked wrote: »
    He has to be reshipping like 30% of the time for this to be a call. IDK much about shaniac's game other than he's an old school online grinder, so I'm assuming he'll be slightly tighter in these spots if anything, so yea just muck it without much thought. I mean there's rarely gonna be a player who this is a call against, since they have to be pretty much shoves any ace on you, and not many are doing that.

    The open depends on all the players left to act, not just shaniac. If someone else is capable of reshipping light I likely fold this. If shaniac's the only one and the other 2 guys are nits then r/f should be fine. All 3 guys have to be jamming on your >20% avg to make you not show an immediate profit.

    Yeah the other 2 are very tight. So i was thinking on the basis that he knows that i know that they are almost always folding, which makes my raise look more like a steal. But I guess thinking way to deep, just need to keep it simple. I was really puzzled and even used a bit of my time clock as sad as that sound.
    Results- I ended up calling and he had 99. I got lucky but hardly the point. I appreciate the comments as I was really unsure how to act in these spots.
  • UnknownUnknown
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    So your saying you wouldnt raise in the first place here?
    its close but as far as calling i don't think thats close at all, i think its a fold. A7o isn't going to play well against his range....
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    Yeah the other 2 are very tight. So i was thinking on the basis that he knows that i know that they are almost always folding, which makes my raise look more like a steal. But I guess thinking way to deep, just need to keep it simple. I was really puzzled and even used a bit of my time clock as sad as that sound.
    Results- I ended up calling and he had 99. I got lucky but hardly the point. I appreciate the comments as I was really unsure how to act in these spots.


    Holy f!@#, I was going to say he had 88's:o.
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    darbday wrote: »
    its close but as far as calling i don't think thats close at all, i think its a fold. A7o isn't going to play well against his range....

    I dont see how you say its not even close at all for calling when in your original post you said the worst A you would call with is A5s. How do you go from saying that to now saying its not even close?
  • UnknownUnknown
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    I dont see how you say its not even close at all for calling when in your original post you said the worst A you would call with is A5s. How do you go from saying that to now saying its not even close?
    a5s crushes a7o
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    darbday wrote: »
    a5s crushes a7o

    Crushes? Im not disagreeing about a fold here. But how can 2 flush draws be worse the 1 :P
  • VekkedVekked
    I would probably call A9s at worst.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    I would probably call A9s at worst.
    ya i think thats one hand above a5s....well thats the way i play it...and im way happier with a9s too
  • actyperactyper
    During this week, many pros have like 20+ tables open. Tightness increases significantly
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    actyper wrote: »
    During this week, many pros have like 20+ tables open. Tightness increases significantly

    This is true, very good point.
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    actyper wrote: »
    During this week, many pros have like 20+ tables open. Tightness increases significantly


    This is a good point, or +1 to btp's this is a good point.:p


    This thread is very good and making me happy.:)
  • moosemoose
    Here's a related question. What do you do in this situation here early on in a tourney?

    Seat 1: altekyachips (2670 in chips)
    Seat 2: hestfesten (3000 in chips)
    Seat 3: strelk (5370 in chips)
    Seat 4: H2OhYeah (2690 in chips)
    Seat 5: krabat2006 (1160 in chips)
    Seat 6: lauren234 (2980 in chips)
    Seat 7: cdnmoose07 (4970 in chips)
    Seat 8: rickypapro (3000 in chips)
    Seat 9: magicstylez (4020 in chips)
    krabat2006: posts small blind 10
    lauren234: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to cdnmoose07 [As Qh]
    cdnmoose07: raises 35 to 55
    rickypapro: folds
    magicstylez: folds
    altekyachips: folds
    hestfesten: raises 125 to 180
    strelk: folds
    H2OhYeah: folds
    krabat2006: folds
    lauren234: folds
  • UnknownUnknown
    moose wrote: »
    Here's a related question. What do you do in this situation here early on in a tourney?

    Seat 1: altekyachips (2670 in chips)
    Seat 2: hestfesten (3000 in chips)
    Seat 3: strelk (5370 in chips)
    Seat 4: H2OhYeah (2690 in chips)
    Seat 5: krabat2006 (1160 in chips)
    Seat 6: lauren234 (2980 in chips)
    Seat 7: cdnmoose07 (4970 in chips)
    Seat 8: rickypapro (3000 in chips)
    Seat 9: magicstylez (4020 in chips)
    krabat2006: posts small blind 10
    lauren234: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to cdnmoose07 [As Qh]
    cdnmoose07: raises 35 to 55
    rickypapro: folds
    magicstylez: folds
    altekyachips: folds
    hestfesten: raises 125 to 180
    strelk: folds
    H2OhYeah: folds
    krabat2006: folds
    lauren234: folds

    i think this is a fold...and i fold this pre but im just tight like that. its fine to call if think you can out play his 3bet range post flop...but i think chips can better spent in position with almost any cards...this is why i fold it pre too
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    moose wrote: »
    Here's a related question. What do you do in this situation here early on in a tourney?

    Seat 1: altekyachips (2670 in chips)
    Seat 2: hestfesten (3000 in chips)
    Seat 3: strelk (5370 in chips)
    Seat 4: H2OhYeah (2690 in chips)
    Seat 5: krabat2006 (1160 in chips)
    Seat 6: lauren234 (2980 in chips)
    Seat 7: cdnmoose07 (4970 in chips)
    Seat 8: rickypapro (3000 in chips)
    Seat 9: magicstylez (4020 in chips)
    krabat2006: posts small blind 10
    lauren234: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to cdnmoose07 [As Qh]
    cdnmoose07: raises 35 to 55
    rickypapro: folds
    magicstylez: folds
    altekyachips: folds
    hestfesten: raises 125 to 180
    strelk: folds
    H2OhYeah: folds
    krabat2006: folds
    lauren234: folds

    Fold is the right play, I dont fold it 100% of the time however I prob should haha. Its a fold because we dont know what this guy is doing, is he a donk, is he tight, etc etc either way we dont want to play a big pot this early, and calling a 3 bet here will prob lead to a big pot whether the flop by A high or Q high. Its too early to have any info on this guy and its better to sit back and observe how the table is playing. This early people could be playing 78s or AA this way. I feel more confident in outplaying people in later levels as I can put my opponents on an accurate range of hands. But in the early levels I never know if they have it or its just some donk.
  • VekkedVekked
    darbday wrote: »
    ya i think thats one hand above a5s....well thats the way i play it...and im way happier with a9s too

    For calling reships A5s isn't as powerful as it is for jamming since people's ranges are fairly ace heavy. So actually even A7s > A5s.
  • VekkedVekked
    @moose - not really related at all (I mean both hands contain re-raises but the skillset/thought process for determining how to proceed is entirely different), but yes this is a fold 100% with no info. If stakes are low enough it could become a call, but in general calling AQ here is burning money.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    For calling reships A5s isn't as powerful as it is for jamming since people's ranges are fairly ace heavy. So actually even A7s > A5s.

    i figure something like this.....


    77+,A8s+,KQs,QJs,ATo+,KQo
  • VekkedVekked
    darbday wrote: »
    i figure something like this.....


    77+,A8s+,KQs,QJs,ATo+,KQo

    Take out QJs, throw in 66 and maybe 55 I think. If you're calling KQo and A8s you can't fold 66.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    Take out QJs, throw in 66 and maybe 55 I think. If you're calling KQo and A8s you can't fold 66.
    i meant for villains shoving range
  • VekkedVekked
    darbday wrote: »
    i meant for villains shoving range

    Oh god that's way too tight for a high stakes reg. He's not folding any pair, suited broadway, or suited ace esp given betrthan's info about gameflow (villain's liable to think betr's opening really light here). I don't know how much looser he is than that, but he's def gonna have that stuff in his range. I'd say he's cramming 15-20% of the time, but not quite the 30% needed to call A7o.
  • moosemoose
    I didn't mean to threadjack, I thought the discussion on the OP was basically over. Thanks for the responses. Essentially my line of thinking too but I hadn't played any online for a couple of months and was feeling rusty. I dumped it because I didn't want to playing it OOP postflop. I didn't think there would be any way I would be taking this down unless an A fell and it went check check on the flop and even then AK could be setting a trap. If I donk bet the flop and he flats or raises I'm just burning money.

    darb would fold this outright. Anyone else play that tight early on in a tourney? Of course if I am going to lay this down to a 3 bet, maybe that is a reason for folding it outright?
  • VekkedVekked
    Open folding AQo pre is bad basically always. The only real situation you should be open folding AQo is if you probably shouldn't be playing the tournament in the first place. Reasons being:

    a) If there are at least a couple fish at the table who will call your open with AJo/KQo or worse dominated hands then you're printing money right there. At lowstakes probably 50% of the field will do that.

    b) If there are no fish super fish at the table you should be able to play well enough post flop to still turn a profit. The only reason you would have a table with no one bad enough to make it super profitable, and a lot of good players who can play equal or better than you, is if you're playing a tournament you shouldn't in the first place, aka you're the spot at the table.

    Also, just because you have to fold to a 3-bet most definitely does not mean you should open fold. Sometimes it does in late game situations vs. spazzes who are 3-betting you relentlessly. The reason we open AQo is because it will play very well vs. the calling ranges of most donks at our table in a single raised pot, and the reason we fold to a 3-bet is because it will not play well vs. the 3-betting ranges of most donks at our table. We can probably expect QQ+/AK to re-raise us fairly frequently, and therefore when we get to a flop with this hand as the pre-flop raiser we can assume our top pairs are the effective nuts until we face sufficient resistance.

    EDIT:

    One small sidenote for point B, you could conceivably be +EV in a tournament but be bad enough deepstacked that you should open fold AQ in EP, but this probably says that you should just late reg since you're -EV early game.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    Open folding AQo pre is bad basically always. The only real situation you should be open folding AQo is if you probably shouldn't be playing the tournament in the first place. Reasons being:

    a) If there are at least a couple fish at the table who will call your open with AJo/KQo or worse dominated hands then you're printing money right there. At lowstakes probably 50% of the field will do that.

    b) If there are no fish super fish at the table you should be able to play well enough post flop to still turn a profit. The only reason you would have a table with no one bad enough to make it super profitable, and a lot of good players who can play equal or better than you, is if you're playing a tournament you shouldn't in the first place, aka you're the spot at the table.

    Also, just because you have to fold to a 3-bet most definitely does not mean you should open fold. Sometimes it does in late game situations vs. spazzes who are 3-betting you relentlessly. The reason we open AQo is because it will play very well vs. the calling ranges of most donks at our table in a single raised pot, and the reason we fold to a 3-bet is because it will not play well vs. the 3-betting ranges of most donks at our table. We can probably expect QQ+/AK to re-raise us fairly frequently, and therefore when we get to a flop with this hand as the pre-flop raiser we can assume our top pairs are the effective nuts until we face sufficient resistance.

    EDIT:

    One small sidenote for point B, you could conceivably be +EV in a tournament but be bad enough deepstacked that you should open fold AQ in EP, but this probably says that you should just late reg since you're -EV early game.
    omg im a nit!
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    Oh god that's way too tight for a high stakes reg. He's not folding any pair, suited broadway, or suited ace esp given betrthan's info about gameflow (villain's liable to think betr's opening really light here). I don't know how much looser he is than that, but he's def gonna have that stuff in his range. I'd say he's cramming 15-20% of the time, but not quite the 30% needed to call A7o.
    ya i stand corrected.... of course ;)
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