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cpf-ers wanted to know if this was a jam....
non exploitable no?
PokerStars Home Game #58619818781: {Canada's Poker Forum} Tournament #370627059, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (40/80) - 2011/03/03 19:16:33 PT [2011/03/03 22:16:33 ET]
Table '370627059 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DrTyore (3480 in chips)
Seat 2: Sharantyr (2290 in chips)
Seat 3: BSPLOY07 (1491 in chips)
Seat 4: chpmuncher (1019 in chips)
Seat 5: waltsfriend (3130 in chips)
Seat 6: seatheflop (1515 in chips)
Seat 7: DataMn (2325 in chips)
Seat 8: wildbill7145 (1625 in chips)
Seat 9: forboon (1125 in chips)
DrTyore: posts the ante 10
Sharantyr: posts the ante 10
BSPLOY07: posts the ante 10
chpmuncher: posts the ante 10
waltsfriend: posts the ante 10
seatheflop: posts the ante 10
DataMn: posts the ante 10
wildbill7145: posts the ante 10
forboon: posts the ante 10
waltsfriend: posts small blind 40
seatheflop: posts big blind 80
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Qc 9c]
Sharantyr said, "how sweet it is"
DataMn: folds
wildbill7145: folds
BSPLOY07 said, "opps"
DrTyore said, "Meh, Mario's a chip farm!"
forboon: ???
PokerStars Home Game #58619818781: {Canada's Poker Forum} Tournament #370627059, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (40/80) - 2011/03/03 19:16:33 PT [2011/03/03 22:16:33 ET]
Table '370627059 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DrTyore (3480 in chips)
Seat 2: Sharantyr (2290 in chips)
Seat 3: BSPLOY07 (1491 in chips)
Seat 4: chpmuncher (1019 in chips)
Seat 5: waltsfriend (3130 in chips)
Seat 6: seatheflop (1515 in chips)
Seat 7: DataMn (2325 in chips)
Seat 8: wildbill7145 (1625 in chips)
Seat 9: forboon (1125 in chips)
DrTyore: posts the ante 10
Sharantyr: posts the ante 10
BSPLOY07: posts the ante 10
chpmuncher: posts the ante 10
waltsfriend: posts the ante 10
seatheflop: posts the ante 10
DataMn: posts the ante 10
wildbill7145: posts the ante 10
forboon: posts the ante 10
waltsfriend: posts small blind 40
seatheflop: posts big blind 80
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Qc 9c]
Sharantyr said, "how sweet it is"
DataMn: folds
wildbill7145: folds
BSPLOY07 said, "opps"
DrTyore said, "Meh, Mario's a chip farm!"
forboon: ???
Comments
thats what you get for MT'ing so much, to even question that.
lay it down and pick a better spot.
I somehow got it in my head that it went raise-reraise-push(by you).... That I hate.
This I hate less.
Mark
well im gonna try a video on non exploitable shoves, and see if the top dogs think i have it correct....but basically it means that no matter what its a neutral ev shove at worst and +ev when anyone behind me doesn't call perfectly.....
but we'll see
what are you trying to imply by "top dogs"? you saying our opinions dont matter?
i bet you went busto, hence ur even posting this, and you probably want someone to tell you it was a good shove...well its not. I hope you got called by K,10 or A,rag or something shitty like that.
im just implying that they know what an unexploitable shove is thats all......and the other players asked me to post it......and i got looked up by pocket aces.....:p
u rubbed me the wrong way yoda.
edit: sorry how did you calculate this without knowing the other players ranges? (hint: im implying that its impossible)
curiouser and curiouser
its a part of the chen formula, which is in like 80% of the hold em books ive read. no HUD can give you preflop EV odds like that, sorry.
second, what is curiouser and curiouser?
lol
lol. no. +ev is always a shove. Every time.
im doin a vid wetts half to explain half to see if i got it right, unless you were hell bent on doin one on them, then you got 5 mins to stop me....
edit: and really i was in bed by 11
hmmmmm . . . little bit of duct tap on the monitor would work. ^-^
Seriously, though . . . M = 5.4 (rounded), you are in push/fold mode. At least, as far as I am concerned. As we all sort of know each other through these tournies, I do not think it is horrible to shove the chips into the middle, here. You might get a few better holdings to fold here, too. But I suck at poker . . . please to be telling me you flopped the floosh.
EDIT:
If this was a mtt............
You made this up or you're misapplying w/e chen thing you're talking about or something b/c you can't know that with the info you have here.
@darb -
It's in the nash equilibrium and it's probably even more of a shove here (I'm guessing most people aren't calling close to correctly).
I highly doubt it's unexploitable though (if it's in the nash it doesn't necessarily mean it's unexploitable) usually only value type hands are unexploitable until you get to the late positions. Also fwiw I'm talking strictly unexploitable in a face-down sense, obv it's exploitable face-up.
I can check it later w/ some different calling ranges but I imagine if people are calling loose enough it's a -EV shove but it could also be so loose that it's unrealistic so it's "effectively" unexploitable for all practical concerns.
To give a practical example to show why nash hands aren't always unexploitable by themselves, if you're playing highstakes say the $216 turbo on FTP and you shove like 10M at 200/400/50a in the cut-off, people are going to be good enough to narrow down your range to what it's actually going to be. They know you're not shoving 99+, AK, AQ for 25BB in the cut-off. Even AJ and 88 are rarely gonna be in there. So whereas if you were shoving the entire nash range the button could only profitably call ATs, KQs, AJo, 66 and better when you shoved 25BB, without the top of your range in there they can open up and call something like A7s, A9o, KJs, 55 and better. This is a pretty big disaster for hands like J8s/T8s/QJo which were barely +EV vs. their originally calling range.
So yea that's a pretty common spot that good highstakes regs will recognize and exploit, an unbalanced overshove range, even though all of the hands you're shoving are still in the nash equilibrium.
ok but what if were at 15bbs in that spot, what i mean is what if we're so low we are shoving our entire opening range and our opponents know were shoving it...
Im pretty sure this hand was posted because we have (almost) perfect information on calling ranges of the villains in the forum tourney.
yo wetts ....hey....you feel like.....
1) watch yodas video
2) re-wire yoda's thinking please
almost perfect calling ranges? i couldn't......
but the hand was posted cause everyone railed me on it and then asked me to post it....
Yeah bad wording. Theyre basically not calling properly. Like nobodys calling KTss and they probably should. So I think in this particular game its def proper.
ok.....regardless if they call perfect.....is it not a shove?
Havent worked it out but its prob really close.
In game I prob do it every time, and feel ok about it.