Frustrating hand from last night..
Playing .5/1 LHE at PokerStars and ran into the following hand...
Dealt KK in MP. One limper in front of me, I raise, cold called in front of me and the both blinds limp in.
Flops comes Kxx, two diamonds, no straight draw.
BB bets, EP folds, I raise, folded to BB who re-raises. Even though there's only the two of us left in the pot, I try to put him on hands. I see AK, two pair, or a flopped set. But, in the back of my mind, I'm nearly 100% postive that he's on a flush draw.
I'm finding more and more people are betting draws in early position to chase out "second-best hands", or to build a pot for when they hit.
Turn comes a blank and he checks. I'm now 99% he's on the flush draw and bet out only to have him raise. My hand is still the best, so we end up capping the turn.
The river is a diamond and he bets out. With $18 in the pot I have to call and he turns over T3d. Argh.
I don't think I would have played it any differently (let me know if you disagree), but the question I had is the re-raise by the drawing hand. When is this a correct play.
Obviously, with only one other person in the pot, he's not getting the odds to make this call. If he knew that there were going to be at least one more person in the pot, is this now a correct play? Also, do you think the 10-1 odds he was getting as the BB justified his call pre-flop?
Dealt KK in MP. One limper in front of me, I raise, cold called in front of me and the both blinds limp in.
Flops comes Kxx, two diamonds, no straight draw.
BB bets, EP folds, I raise, folded to BB who re-raises. Even though there's only the two of us left in the pot, I try to put him on hands. I see AK, two pair, or a flopped set. But, in the back of my mind, I'm nearly 100% postive that he's on a flush draw.
I'm finding more and more people are betting draws in early position to chase out "second-best hands", or to build a pot for when they hit.
Turn comes a blank and he checks. I'm now 99% he's on the flush draw and bet out only to have him raise. My hand is still the best, so we end up capping the turn.
The river is a diamond and he bets out. With $18 in the pot I have to call and he turns over T3d. Argh.
I don't think I would have played it any differently (let me know if you disagree), but the question I had is the re-raise by the drawing hand. When is this a correct play.
Obviously, with only one other person in the pot, he's not getting the odds to make this call. If he knew that there were going to be at least one more person in the pot, is this now a correct play? Also, do you think the 10-1 odds he was getting as the BB justified his call pre-flop?
Comments
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=707867
pokenum -h kc ks - td 3d - 5s 5c - 9c 7h
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kc 600658 55.31 483222 44.50 2128 0.20 0.554
Td 3d 170028 15.66 913852 84.15 2128 0.20 0.157
5s 5c 166205 15.30 917675 84.50 2128 0.20 0.154
9c 7h 146989 13.53 936891 86.27 2128 0.20 0.136
On the flop:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=707874
pokenum -h kc ks - td 3d - 5s 5c - 9c 7h -- kd 9d 2c
Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 2c Kd 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kc 586 71.46 234 28.54 0 0.00 0.715
Td 3d 232 28.29 588 71.71 0 0.00 0.283
5s 5c 1 0.12 819 99.88 0 0.00 0.001
9c 7h 1 0.12 819 99.88 0 0.00 0.001
I'm surprised at the tone of your post. It's like you think you played it wrong or something. You should be betting any chance you get in that situation.
Which call? The flop 3-bet is fine because he's got a 35% chance to make the flush ignoring the 10 bets in the pot already. The turn cap is marginal headsup, but theres too much money in the pot, so folding is wrong. There was no way for you to defend your hand and put him in an unprofitable situation. You are both justified.
I've found that they know you've caught them betting a draw, but they want to insist you haven't really figured out what they have. It's a great play, which I use, when there are multiple people in the pot. Usually, if there are over 4 or more players capping the turn is very profitable for the guy betting the nut flush.
The dilema is do you want a high variance but extremely high +EV play. I don't believe capping the turn is an automatic play. This is where I might differ with the experts who say that you should always push a postive EV situation. I feel, it really depends on your bankroll at the time. If you can stand the variance, bet away. If not, then check the turn and raise the river if the diamond doesn't come or call the river if it does. Regardless, you're always in +EV land, and that's a good thing.
Cheers
Magi
Turn action: You have the nuts. HU vs. a flush draw, you're a 4 to 1, raise any opportunity you get.
River action: He didn't play it like a draw, so I would raise the river as well, then call a 3-bet.
I don't believe in plays that would "lower variance" in limit hold'em. The only solution to variance is a large enough bankroll.
Heads-up, betting or raising a standard* draw can never be for value. Of course, many times the (current and expected future) pot is big enough so that calling with standard draws is certainly correct.
So, should you never bet or raise with a drawing hand? Not at all. There are certainly times when you should. Sometimes with enough players in, a bet or raise with a draw can be for value. Sometimes it is useful to bet or raise to drive players out who may have weak hands, but backdoor redraws against you.
In this example, I think the BB betting out with a draw is a poor play. I'd check the flop, assuming the pre-flop raiser would automatically bet the flop.** I'd prefer going for a check-raise (hoping to trap the SB for an extra small bet) if I was going to make an aggressive play here.
However, I prefer check-call over both of these options. (Check-call on the turn will also be correct on the turn due to the pot odds, assuming I have not made the flush and am not drawing dead.) What has he got? A non-nut standard draw against few players with pretty slim chances that the opposition will all fold to aggressive play. (Hey, it's low-limit right?) Worth one bet only IMO.
Check-raising and capping it with the flush draw on the turn when it is heads-up is simply awful. Seems like your opponent has learned low-limit poker by watching the World Poker Tour.
He makes a fine value bet on the river, but he probably shouldn't bask in the gloriousness of this particular play. Going for a check-raise might have even been better.
Finally pre-flop, I wouldn't normally play T3s from the BB.
As for your own play, did you cap the flop betting? I would have.
Just calling on the river is fine too. He played it like a low-limit player might play a flush draw.
Above all else, when this kind of hand begins to make you feel delighted rather than frustrated, then you're in the low-limit zone baby.
ScottyZ
*That is, a simple flush or straight draw with no additional probable outs.
**And if he doesn't, I get a free card. What's wrong with that?
$18 - BB's river bet($1) - Turn cap($8) - 5 player 2-bet preflop ($5) = $4 = The two of us capped the flop.)
Definately not the intention. I was really more curious as to the play of the BB.
I'll get there. I did, however, compliment his play and mentioned that he disguised the flush-draw really well. (Of course, I don't think he caught on to the fact that had I really though he didn't have a flush, I would have had to assume I had the nuts and so would have raised his bet on the end.. yay for low limit players.)
I find that if a (low limit) player makes this play, he's the type of player that will generally play draws hard, and any made hands weak. These two tells, for this player, saved me a few bets and won me some money back before the end of the session, so all was not lost.