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Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BB: $16.11
UTG: $29.05
UTG+1: $139.41
MP1: $47.20
MP2: $48.52
CO: $16.22
Yoda (BTN): $62.38
SB: $36.95
Pre-Flop: A
A
dealt to Yoda (BTN)
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Yoda raises to $1.75, 2 folds, MP1 calls $1
Flop: ($4.25) 6
T 2 (2 Players)
MP1 checks, Yoda bets $2.70, MP1 calls $2.70
Turn: ($9.65) 6 T 2/B] J[IMG]http://www.leggopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif[/IMG] [B (2 Players)
MP1 checks, Yoda bets $6.25, MP1 calls $6.25
River: ($22.15) 6 T 2 J/B] 7[IMG]http://www.leggopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif[/IMG] [B (2 Players)
MP1 bets $13.50, Yoda calls $13.50
Results: $49.15 Pot ($2 Rake)
MP1 showed 6 7 and WON $47.15 (+$22.95 NET)
Yoda mucked A A and LOST (-$24.20 NET)
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
BB: $16.11
UTG: $29.05
UTG+1: $139.41
MP1: $47.20
MP2: $48.52
CO: $16.22
Yoda (BTN): $62.38
SB: $36.95
Pre-Flop: A
A dealt to Yoda (BTN)2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Yoda raises to $1.75, 2 folds, MP1 calls $1
Flop: ($4.25) 6
T 2 (2 Players)MP1 checks, Yoda bets $2.70, MP1 calls $2.70
Turn: ($9.65) 6
T 2/B] J[IMG]http://www.leggopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif[/IMG] [B (2 Players)![/B] J[IMG]http://www.leggopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif[/IMG] [B](/?page=%2FB%5D_J%5BIMG%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.leggopoker.com%2Fhh%2Fimages%2Fdiamond.gif%5B%2FIMG%5D_%5BB){kind=link}
MP1 checks, Yoda bets $6.25, MP1 calls $6.25
River: ($22.15) 6
T 2 J/B] 7[IMG]http://www.leggopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif[/IMG] [B (2 Players)![/B] 7[IMG]http://www.leggopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif[/IMG] [B](/?page=%2FB%5D_7%5BIMG%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.leggopoker.com%2Fhh%2Fimages%2Fdiamond.gif%5B%2FIMG%5D_%5BB){kind=link}
MP1 bets $13.50, Yoda calls $13.50
Results: $49.15 Pot ($2 Rake)
MP1 showed 6
7 and WON $47.15 (+$22.95 NET)Yoda mucked A
A and LOST (-$24.20 NET)
Comments
*edit*
Preflop, he's got 19% equity and you offer him 2.85:1 odds with pretty huge implied odds (189xBB effective stacks; 12:1 stack-to-pot ratio).
On the flop, he's got 24.3% equity and you offer 2.6:1 odds.
On the turn, he's got 11.4% equity and you offer 2.54:1 odds (his first significant mistake).
On the river, you have 0% equity and he offers you 2.64:1 on a bet worth 54xBB. You call with a pair on a board that could have a flush (albeit runner-runner) or a straight (believable if he had 8c9c and was chasing 12 outs the whole way).
P.S. I see a hand like this about once an hour playing 6 tables of 6-max, so it's not exactly rare. What's worse is when you get called by something like K5, the guy shoves all-in on a T-6-4 flop, and then proceeds to catch 7 - 3 for the runner-runner straight. Then I puke a little bit, click the reload button, type "nh", and carry on.
post of the year...
Don't get me wrong, I call in your spot pretty often too. My thoughts were:
1) raise more pre-flop. No one is going to fold to a (practically) minimum 3-bet. I'm surprised you didn't get 3 callers.
2) Bet more on the flop. You're not charging drawing hands enough.
3) After he calls your flop and turn bets, you need to think about what hands you're beating that are consistent with all the action so far. You have AT beat, but JT caught up. KK and QQ are unlikely (probably would have raised at some point). Few other one-pair hands will have made it this far. All you've got is a bluff-catcher, so you're basically hoping that villain is bluffing his missed flush draw (or had planned to bluff the river with ATC - maybe villain has been doing this?), or he's value-betting AT (unlikely). Otherwise, there's not much you're beating here.
This is a pretty stereotypical hand. Unless you get it AIPF, AA tends to win small pots (e.g. take it down on the flop or turn) and lose big pots (e.g. lose at showdown).
2nd post of the year....
meh...wasn't as good as the first two....im 6tabling at the moment will be back for this in a bit....
now thats a post....how so sir?
Sick of typing on my phone:) I don't like that board that deep and I keep the pot smaller without specific reads.
skillful 67o?
there is no reasonable way to cut out implied odds....and he hit on the river so he pretty much got all the implied odds he can get...
these are both mistakes on his part....im not getting out played.....
my equity vs his range (which includes missed flushes that caught a pair etc) is better than the pot odds....
he would have likely folded to a bigger range, look at his hand....my goal is to get heads up with this moron and in position with aces...then build a pot
clearly i bet more than his equity.....
i think with the pot odds you listed a range that i could snap call with...
my bets are becoming dynamic, here believing villain is weak and oop i feel i can comfortably control the pot. betting big woulda had the villain fold way too early here i think
thx for the post...
A monkey can win a small pot with AA. But you can win big pots, and get away from losing situations easily, with something like 67o. Small connectors and suited connectors are often nicknamed "cash game hands" because stacks are usually deep enough in cash games to play stuff like that. Not so much in tournaments, when you might have a 10-20xBB stack. Do you see why?
Actually, there's a really easy way. It's called "raise more pre-flop". Your pre-flop raise made your SPR 12 on the flop. With a hand like AA, you want as low an SPR as possible; definitely < 10, but preferably like 4 or 5 so it's easy to get the money in. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read "Professional No Limit Hold'em" by Sunny Mehta, Ed Miller, et al.
He didn't quite have sufficient explicit pot odds on the flop, but he wasn't that far off. And if he can put you on an over-pair that you're unable to lay down, then he certainly has sufficient implied odds at that point. On the turn, not so much... so I'll give you that one.
See GTA_Poker's response, below. In a cash game, you usually don't want to build a huge pot with a pair. Take it down early before your opponent catches up. Otherwise, nobody is going to hand you their stack with less than two-pair, unless you're lucky and villain can't get away from TPTK or a worse over-pair... but then you're depending on luck, not skill.
Again, consider implied odds. Besides, you won't beat the rake by giving your opponent opportunities to make marginal mistakes.
And that's why I agree that I probably would have called on the river, too. The point is that you shouldn't have found yourself in that spot in the first place. Play the hand better and you win the pot, or at least make it a much bigger mistake for your opponent to draw out on you.
^^ this.
this must by how im raising 28% of hands from every position....
are we trying to get the money in or no? keep in mind 67o is not calling any real raise...until the river....
again are we trying to get the money in or no? and are we trying to get villain to fold worse hand or call with the worse hand?
also 13.50 is not enough implied odds.....and neither is calling to hit a 6 or 7 on the flop
You obviously know everything already and have nothing to learn. My bad. Carry on.
...
Gawd, I can't even get away from this... How do you think it's easier to get the money in by (practically) min-3-betting? Wouldn't it be a lot easier if you raise more (say, to $2.50 or $3)? Do you see why nobody in their right mind would fold ATC to a (practically) min-3-bet pre-flop (e.g. getting very close to 3:1 explicit pot odds) and a 12:1 SPR? Do you understand why you don't want to get the money in on the river with a pair? Do you see why you'd be MUCH better off getting the money in on the flop or turn, BEFORE your opponent catches up? Do you know why you're playing poker? Do you hate money?
Basically, with AA, you want your opponent to commit when he's still drawing, not when he has you beat. And more times than not, AA only wins a big hand against KK, QQ, AK, etc. You want one of those hands to come after you pre-flop. Otherwise, you want to take it down early. Otherwise, you have a problem with "fancy play syndrome".
This guy made a reasonably large error on the turn, but pre-flop and on the flop, you didn't give this guy a big enough opportunity to make a mistake, and you rewarded him on the river. He could just as easily have had a straight or pair+backdoor-flush draw, and if he can put you on a big over-pair (which isn't too hard considering your min-3-bet might as well say "I have a big pair and am trying to suck you in"), then he has a pretty good reason to call pre-flop and on the flop.
My personal preference with AA when deep-stacked: (a) 90% or more I play to get it in early (pre-flop or on the flop), and don't give opponent a chance to see a river (period) or a turn cheaply; (b) maybe 10% I play it deceptively... and if villain acts strong on an extremely dry board (e.g. the only hand that makes sense is a set or air), or if the flop is extremely wet (e.g. all same suit and not the suit of either of my A's, or 3-to-a-straight + 2 of a suit, etc), then I attempt to control the pot size. Obviously scenario (a) is a lot easier to play, which is why it's my standard "go to" play. Anything else runs the risk of having a player shove the river and you're sitting there with a pair thinking "damn I played this poorly" and making a crying call.
If you still think your play was better, go read 2+2 or pocket-5s or a any cash game poker book or ...
because he will fold if i bet more.....
so when you get aces you try and get your opp to fold? do you shove your nut hands?
i thought we agreed this river is a call?
i bet, both mistakes for the opp. he sucked out....BIGTIME
for yes people who play like opponent
do you fear equity?
see hand for example....i cannot control the river card....
this is not true for me.....
do you like money?
i most certainly do!
preflop we want opp in the hand, we have aces, we have position, and we obviously have skill advantage.....thats grave mistake for him. on the flop he calls trying to draw to a 6 or a 7....he doesn't get anywhere near odds for this.....keeping in mind he has to call another bet on the turn if he misses......
how not to go broke with aces....and again we decided the river is a call.....
its really hard because i do this with almost all of my preflop range....
to bleed chips and suck out on the river?
I still love you too yoda.:D
my history is these players are awful, if i raise higher then he folds all his bad hands and call or raises with only good hands. when i raise smaller, time after time the villain will continue with a terrible hand. from there, i just have to remember he has a very wide range.
don't take it as advice though, i do stupid stuff, alot
One of the good things about big hands is fold equity. With AA, you win 80% against a random hand if you get it AIPF and are called. You win 100% of the time if they fold. Yes, it's 100% of a smaller amount, so your EV is lower (you'd prefer to get it AIPF), but if you haven't improved by the river and your opponent isn't going away, there's a good chance you're behind. Few players try to get it all in when they're beat by a pair. Sure, you say the players at this table are horrible, but how horrible? Do you have thousands of hands of history to back it up, or are they unknowns that seem to be horrible in comparison to your presumed god-like abilities?
Second, by (practically) min-3-betting, you don't have any info on villain's range in this hand. All you know is he raised pre-flop. In villain's shoes, I for one am certainly not folding to a min-3-bet after raising, because that's easily exploitable in the long run. Besides, it practically flips your (hero's) hand over: you've got a big pair and don't want to scare me away... so now I know that if I can out-flop you, I'll get paid off huge. If you 3-bet bigger, you're going to get folds from most of the shit hands, you'll get calls (or maybe even re-raises) from the strong hands, and you'll have at least a chance to put villain on some sort of range. That way, when the flop comes all rags, you know he (probably) didn't hit. Instead, you really have no idea where you stand in this hand. TJ is certainly in his range, especially after the call on the flop. 67 could be in his range. AcXc, AdXd (especially Ad6d or AdTd), a small pocket pair... you really don't know. It's basically any hand he would open raise with. And if you're blind to your opponent's range, then where is this big skill advantage you're talking about? Sounds like you're playing AA like a monkey to me. I don't see the skill. And that's why I said "it looks like you got out-played".
That's the problem with the tiny 3-bet. If you're going to put in a more serious 3-bet with the lower end of your range (say, AJ or KQ or 99 or whatever the bottom end of your 3-bet range is), then you can't go around making tiny 3-bets with your big pairs. It's too obvious what you're doing.
P.S. The river was a (crying) call because of the way you played it. The main reason, imho, was because you 3-bet small enough to give you an SPR of 12 on the flop. At the end of the hand, that bet amount made it that you had good odds on a call on the river. If you make a bigger raise pre-flop, he might fold (and you win a small pot 100% of the time), or he calls, you're able to make a bigger bet on the flop (which he may or may not call), and you can shove it in on the turn (and he almost certainly folds). Or if you didn't feel like shoving the turn, you could check the turn and maybe find a fold to his bet on the river. In any case, you could have played it differently to avoid being put in that spot.
At the risk of sounding like a n00b, what the hell is SPR?
it is a consideration of you and your opponents effective stacks (whos ever is lower) in relation to the pot sizes that your bets create on each street. the idea is you don't want put yourself in an awkward spot.
An example of an awkward spot would be having to go all in on the river (with the nuts) with $50 into a $40 dollar pot....it wouldn't make sense to bet $30 into the $40 and leave yourself with $20.....you would prefer to have built the pot to $50 and be betting all in with $40 instead (maybe)
the numbers and suggestions though, are not nearly as important as the simple consideration as to what you will be left to bet with in relation to the pot....