Is This A Raise Or A Call??

13CARDS13CARDS
in Brick & Mortar Casino Talk
***The common or standard one chip rule is in place***

$5-$10 NLHE

Small Blind ($5) and Big Blind ($10) are posted.
UTG limps with two red $5 chips.
UTG+1 raises to $30 with six red $5 chips.
MP tosses in two green $25 chips without making any verbal declaration.

Before the dealer announces RAISE or CALL, 4 players call out "That's a call!" and 4 other players say "That's a raise!". You are called to the table as the Floor Supervisor to make a decision. What is your ruling and please, show your work....
«13

Comments

  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    its a raise

    original bet $10
    utg+1 bumps to 30, raising 20
    utg+2 bumps to 50, which is 30 more than utg+1 raise, so he raised a legitimate amount
  • MiloMilo
    . . . and, as he used more than one chip, it cannot be a call using the "one chip" rule.

    He raised . . . move along, citizens.


    Psst . . . AJ . . . the raise to 50 is a raise of 20 (on top of the 30), identical to the raise to 30

    In other words:

    UTG +1 raised 20 (to 30 total)
    UTG +2 raised 20 (to 50 total)
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    Agreed. But most people will look at the 30 and subract it from the 50 and because its less than 30 its a call. Very nicely explained as well.
  • UnknownUnknown
    STR82ACE wrote: »
    its a raise

    original bet $10
    utg+1 bumps to 30, raising 20
    utg+2 bumps to 50, which is 30 more than utg+1 raise, so he raised a legitimate amount

    i did this once and i didn't understand no one took it as a raise......
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    Milo wrote: »
    Psst . . . AJ . . . the raise to 50 is a raise of 20 (on top of the 30), identical to the raise to 30

    In other words:

    UTG +1 raised 20 (to 30 total)
    UTG +2 raised 20 (to 50 total)

    I stand corrected.
    I thought you were trying to get a NO POST message?
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    Most everywhere that I've ever played that is a call unless raise is verbally declared and I've probably played live cash games at over 30 casinos. Obviously it is the amount of a raise but it is similar to tossing in a green chip to flat call the $10 limp...without declaration it is call. Of course, each room can have it's own rules so there is no debate, just learn the house rules before sitting at a table or ask prior to the first time you decide to take such an action. I always state raise or call prior to placing chips in the pot to avoid any confusion.
  • MiloMilo
    Not to be pedantic, but your example uses "one" chip to make the "call", thus the "one chip" rule. In the example given in the OP, UTG +2 throws out two (2) chips that equal a valid raise. If he would have thrown in a $100.00 chip, I would rule it a call. In this case, it's a raise.
  • MeistroMeistro
    Oversized chip rule applies here, since one green is not sufficient to call this is a call.
  • westside8westside8
    Raising $20 from $30 to $50 is a legal raise no?
  • BuyinBankBuyinBank
    I remember on my first trip to Macau, playing in a 10/25 game (HKD), early position raised to 125, MP called, I threw in 525 on the button (one 500 chip and one 25 chip) without declaring raise, though that was my intention, and it was considered a call, even through there were two chips.

    There reasoning was that even though I put in two chips, the extra 25 matched the bet size, so I was obviously helping the dealer make change. I asked for a ruling and the decision stood (pit boss originally from the Wynn in Vegas).

    Really dependent on the casino, even though the raise from from 5/10 blinds to 30 to 50 is a legal 3bet.
  • rapz4lyferapz4lyfe
    that's a call. unless specifically said raise. the colour chip rule only applies to tournaments. every live casino will take it as a call b/c it's not the min raise to the next closest raise/bet
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    STR82ACE wrote: »
    its a raise

    original bet $10
    utg+1 bumps to 30, raising 20
    utg+2 bumps to 50, which is 30 more than utg+1 raise, so he raised a legitimate amount
    Wrong answer and Wrong reasoning/explanation of a legit raise!

    Milo wrote: »
    . . . and, as he used more than one chip, it cannot be a call using the "one chip" rule.

    He raised . . . move along, citizens....
    Wait citizens!!! I do believe Milo's answer in Wrong. Better keep reading.
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    Most everywhere that I've ever played that is a call unless raise is verbally declared and I've probably played live cash games at over 30 casinos. Obviously it is the amount of a raise but it is similar to tossing in a green chip to flat call the $10 limp...without declaration it is call. Of course, each room can have it's own rules so there is no debate, just learn the house rules before sitting at a table or ask prior to the first time you decide to take such an action. I always state raise or call prior to placing chips in the pot to avoid any confusion.
    By your reasoning, if MP tossed in two black $100 chips, it would only be a call?!?!? I think most here would agree that reasoning is flawed!
    Milo wrote: »
    Not to be pedantic, but your example uses "one" chip to make the "call", thus the "one chip" rule. In the example given in the OP, UTG +2 throws out two (2) chips that equal a valid raise. If he would have thrown in a $100.00 chip, I would rule it a call. In this case, it's a raise.
    You almost grasp the concept but you still need to keep reading...
    Meistro wrote: »
    Oversized chip rule applies here, since one green is not sufficient to call this is a call.
    I 100% agree that this is the correct application of the rule and exactly how the situation should be resolved!!! Meistro, what is your screen name on Pokerstars? I wanna ship $5...
    westside8 wrote: »
    Raising $20 from $30 to $50 is a legal raise no?
    It is a legal raise AMOUNT however the WAY that MP did it does not make it a LEGAL RAISE. The same as throwing in one oversized grey $5,000 chip is a legal raise amount but, without verbal declaration, not a legal way to raise. BTW, I expected you to be one of the members to get this right. :-)
    BuyinBank wrote: »
    I remember on my first trip to Macau, playing in a 10/25 game (HKD), early position raised to 125, MP called, I threw in 525 on the button (one 500 chip and one 25 chip) without declaring raise, though that was my intention, and it was considered a call, even through there were two chips.

    There reasoning was that even though I put in two chips, the extra 25 matched the bet size, so I was obviously helping the dealer make change. I asked for a ruling and the decision stood (pit boss originally from the Wynn in Vegas).

    Really dependent on the casino, even though the raise from from 5/10 blinds to 30 to 50 is a legal 3bet.
    I feel this is the WRONG application of the rule; one $25 chip does NOT match a bet of $125. Sorry you got a weak pit boss.
    rapz4lyfe wrote: »
    that's a call. unless specifically said raise. the colour chip rule only applies to tournaments. every live casino will take it as a call b/c it's not the min raise to the next closest raise/bet
    If by "the colour chip rule" you mean One Chip Rule or Oversized Chip Rule, it applies to cash games as well as tournaments. The rest of your reasoning is wrong too as the AMOUNT was sufficient for a raise. Sorry.
  • PinheadPinhead
    Wow I guess it's never too early in the day to be a giant fucking cunt to the people who tried to answer your question?

    Everybody else is wrong, you're the greatest ever! Congratulations on doing your job properly, you're a real hero to all us employed morons. Next time I do something correctly at my job I'll make sure to let everybody else know.
  • MiloMilo
    Pinhead wrote: »
    Wow I guess it's never too early in the day to be a giant fucking cunt to the people who tried to answer your question?

    Everybody else is wrong, you're the greatest ever! Congratulations on doing your job properly, you're a real hero to all us employed morons. Next time I do something correctly at my job I'll make sure to let everybody else know.


    Please see bolded . . . this may become my new tagline.

    Thx, Pinhead, my day started out on a total downer, but I cannot stop smiling now . . . :)
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Pinhead wrote: »
    Wow I guess it's never too early in the day to be a giant fucking cunt to the people who tried to answer your question?

    Everybody else is wrong, you're the greatest ever! Congratulations on doing your job properly, you're a real hero to all us employed morons. Next time I do something correctly at my job I'll make sure to let everybody else know.

    I love you, too. And I did not do anything correct at work; I had nothing to do with this situation. Actually, I NEVER work in the poker room or in the tournaments. My services are no longer required there. But I do appreciate the vulgar personal attack...it has been sometime since one has been fired off at me! <3
  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    Pinhead wrote: »
    Wow I guess it's never too early in the day to be a giant fucking cunt to the people who tried to answer your question?

    Everybody else is wrong, you're the greatest ever! Congratulations on doing your job properly, you're a real hero to all us employed morons. Next time I do something correctly at my job I'll make sure to let everybody else know.

    Awesome threadsave/


    Btw, I love threads that follow this format

    OP: Hey guys what do you think of this situation?

    followed by various replies

    OP: GOD YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS AND I"M GOING TO BOLD MY LETTERING TO FURTHER ILLUSTRATE HOW MUCH SMARTER I AM THAN YOU!!
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Soooooo.... Things are back to normal I see....

    Back on track, 13Cards can you show me where this is documented? ie not just an "interpretation" of the 1 chip rule? Really would like to understand..
  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    13CARDS wrote: »
    But I do appreciate the vulgar personal attack...


    Hmmmmm, now this is believable.
  • JimmyHoJimmyHo
    would say it was a call as any chip tossed without verbal raise should be considered a call, IMO. Would be different if two $100 chips.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    compuease wrote: »
    Soooooo.... Things are back to normal I see....

    Back on track, 13Cards can you show me where this is documented? ie not just an "interpretation" of the 1 chip rule? Really would like to understand..

    This is just one of many threads about this topic: Oversized chip rule?? - Poker Card Room - Casino Live Poker Rooms Forum
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    If this was me, and I intended to raise....

    I have raised an amount that justifies a raise. I put more than one chip in. This is a raise, and I would raise such fucking hell if someone didn't accept that.

    Mark
  • actyperactyper
    That link has nothing to do with your scenario. That example is for multiple chips less than the min raise, and yours is for a legal raise. That example is also for a tournament.

    Please post rules where a verbal declaration is required for a legal multi chip raise.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    13CARDS wrote: »
    This is just one of many threads about this topic: Oversized chip rule?? - Poker Card Room - Casino Live Poker Rooms Forum

    Sorry but that sure doesn't clarify it... I would like to see where the rule is written to cover this situation, not someones' interpretation or "opinion".

    Note that I am not saying you are right or wrong, I'm kinda on the fence on this one and can see both sides... But would like more than your "opinion".
  • UnknownUnknown
    this is the best i could find.....

    Oversized chip rule?? - Poker Card Room - Casino Live Poker Rooms Forum


    seems in an un stated action like that you should take the less aggressive one (call). someone mentioned multiple chip rule but i couldn't find it. the name oversize chip rule makes more sense than one chip rule but they both seem to mean the same thing maybe that the 'one' chip refers the 2nd chip which is the 'one' chip in question.

    great thread!

    would be nice to have alot of pro dealers around to ask questions like this.
  • MiloMilo
    pokerJAH wrote: »
    would say it was a call as any chip tossed without verbal raise should be considered a call, IMO. Would be different if two $100 chips.

    You just contradicted yourself . . . the player in the OP proffered enough chips for a legal raise, but did not verbally say "raise". If you want to say that is a "call", fine. But you cannot then state that putting out two $100.00 chips (without verbalizing your action) would be "different". Both situations were/are legal raises, and should be counted as such.

    waiting for 13CARDS to provide relevant proof . . .
  • MiloMilo
    Part of the reason I went with "raise" is that, by making that ruling, you eliminate the possible cries of angle shooting when, after a following player(s) puts in their $50, the "Silent Bob" says all he did was "call" the $30. By declaring it to be a valid raise, the only person (possibly) inconvenienced is the person who caused the problem in the first place. No one yet to act is thus penalized, or gains any advantage either.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Milo wrote: »
    waiting for 13CARDS to provide relevant proof . . .

    Now THAT'S funny

    Mark
  • MiloMilo
    Well, you know, it's never too early . . .
  • T8urmoneyT8urmoney
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    Most everywhere that I've ever played that is a call unless raise is verbally declared and I've probably played live cash games at over 30 casinos. Obviously it is the amount of a raise but it is similar to tossing in a green chip to flat call the $10 limp...without declaration it is call. Of course, each room can have it's own rules so there is no debate, just learn the house rules before sitting at a table or ask prior to the first time you decide to take such an action. I always state raise or call prior to placing chips in the pot to avoid any confusion.

    This, if you have only a stack of quarters, do you have to announce 'call' when throwing 2 in to cover the 30? The onus has always been to announce 'raise', not to announce 'call'.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Milo wrote: »
    You just contradicted yourself . . . the player in the OP proffered enough chips for a legal raise, but did not verbally say "raise". If you want to say that is a "call", fine. But you cannot then state that putting out two $100.00 chips (without verbalizing your action) would be "different". Both situations were/are legal raises, and should be counted as such.

    waiting for 13CARDS to provide relevant proof . . .

    You don't see the difference between the two scenarios? Re-read Meistro's reply...
    http://www.pokerforum.ca/f7/raise-call-24278/#post251722

    Throwing out two $100 chips is a RAISE as both chips are sufficient to make the call. Throwing out two $25 chips is a CALL as neither chip is sufficient to call the $30 bet. TOTALLY DIFFERENT scenarios!!!!
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