Bet for value? Check for prosperity?
This was a strange hand and I'd like some feedback on my final play here:
B&M 4-8 hold'em, very loose passive game. I'm in 8th position with Ad Qc, 4 limpers in front of me, I raise to $8, folded behind me, SB and BB call along with the 4 limpers (pot = $56). Flop is 4d 6d 4c. Checked to a guy in 5th position who has opened on every flop he has seen -- he bets out. I normally don't call a bet with only two overcards, but I still think I have 6 outs (plus the backdoor nut flush draw). However, I may only have 5 outs if someone has two diamonds. Regardless, it figures to be a big pot because I know everyone is calling this bet. Sure enough, everyone calls (pot = $84). The turn card is the Ts. Curiously, everyone checks now. I'll take the free card, I check in position. River is the Qd. Hmmm, okay, I hit one of my 6 outs. Unfortunately, it's the worst one because it could have made someone their flush. However, it's checked around again!
What to do? The pot is already pretty big, but do I want to try to make it bigger? There were several "policemen" at the table (calling down on the river with middle or bottom pair to make sure the bettor had it), so I was certain someone with a ten, six, or worse queen would call if I bet. I knew no one had a 4 because they would have bet on the turn. The real question was, did someone hit their flush? My gut told me "no" because I figured they would have bet on the river if they hit because there was no action on the turn. Anyone with a flush should assume they have the best hand and they should bet for value. So, bottom line -- do I check and see if my top-pair/top kicker takes down the pot? Or do I bet for value? (scroll down to see what happened)
I bet, SB called, BB called, and another player called. SB ("policeman #1") had KTo. BB had 9d3d (there's that flush!). The other player had QsJc. The BB took it down. Unfortunately, the second-best hand wins nothing. Weird, weird hand.
B&M 4-8 hold'em, very loose passive game. I'm in 8th position with Ad Qc, 4 limpers in front of me, I raise to $8, folded behind me, SB and BB call along with the 4 limpers (pot = $56). Flop is 4d 6d 4c. Checked to a guy in 5th position who has opened on every flop he has seen -- he bets out. I normally don't call a bet with only two overcards, but I still think I have 6 outs (plus the backdoor nut flush draw). However, I may only have 5 outs if someone has two diamonds. Regardless, it figures to be a big pot because I know everyone is calling this bet. Sure enough, everyone calls (pot = $84). The turn card is the Ts. Curiously, everyone checks now. I'll take the free card, I check in position. River is the Qd. Hmmm, okay, I hit one of my 6 outs. Unfortunately, it's the worst one because it could have made someone their flush. However, it's checked around again!
What to do? The pot is already pretty big, but do I want to try to make it bigger? There were several "policemen" at the table (calling down on the river with middle or bottom pair to make sure the bettor had it), so I was certain someone with a ten, six, or worse queen would call if I bet. I knew no one had a 4 because they would have bet on the turn. The real question was, did someone hit their flush? My gut told me "no" because I figured they would have bet on the river if they hit because there was no action on the turn. Anyone with a flush should assume they have the best hand and they should bet for value. So, bottom line -- do I check and see if my top-pair/top kicker takes down the pot? Or do I bet for value? (scroll down to see what happened)
I bet, SB called, BB called, and another player called. SB ("policeman #1") had KTo. BB had 9d3d (there's that flush!). The other player had QsJc. The BB took it down. Unfortunately, the second-best hand wins nothing. Weird, weird hand.
Comments
mind you if i was that guy i likely would have bet out with my baby flush, but that's me.
however, with a pot that large already, i think id be inclined to just show it down right there, for fear of being check raised...
People LLLLOOOVVEEE to check raise the river, with something as weak as TPTK against a large field get to that showdown as fast as possible. Especailly in a large pot.
Or ZERO outs agains the loose passive limper that holds a 4. How did you manage to omit that possible opponent holding? That flop is suited, connected AND paired. Doesn't fare well for an overcard draw.
You already said your opponents are passive. Passive means they call/check rather than bet. I'd only expect that type of player to bet if he made an A/K flush or else he's likely (incorrectly) scared of bigger flushes.
Two things worry me. First, someone with three 4s who checked, worried about a flush. Second, someone with a flush who is worried about a tight. But, on balance of probability I still favour betting. My answer is based upon my assumptions about what the average $4-8 game is like. As defined: loose and passive.
seat 5 catches a four on the flop,possible A4(people like to play their aces)
seat five check on the turn with 6 callers someone is chasing overcards so he was expecting to check raise
on the river the flush hits,people had to call on the flop with something,a flush draws seems resonable to me. The flush draw is hoping to check raise(like BBC Z said people LLLOOVVEEE to check raise the river) Seat five is now scared of the flush draw so he checks.
In this situation if you get a caller i think your hands beat
Why not check and find out if your hands good at the showdown, rather than invite a check raise with a hand you cant playback with.
If i was playing this hand i would have folded on the flop thinking i was drawing to runner runner queens.