Question: when to show your hand?
Great question, let me rephrase it as get the forum's response.I'm wondering, should I have shown the KK, try to influence respect for my raises?
When should you table your hand if you do not have do?
When everyone else has folded and you have the best hand? A bluff?
In my view, the only reason to show a hand is to manipulate your opponents in some way. What should you show and whay are you hoping to accomplish?
Comments
its more of a subtle type of manipulation, not outright (and very obvious). its like saying, 'dont you put me in that box just yet'.
it works for me. its almost as if this way they encorporate the thought into their subconscious, and they are more wary of me without knowing exactly why (as opposed to being aware that the next time i make the same play it will be to a certain end).
im curious as to what everyone else thinks
Showing bad cards, is to entice them to call you more often or that you are willing to play different hands, and are not a rock but then your raises will not be respected and you will even be reraised, possibly playing back at your or even with better hands.
id say that im not looking for either respect or for them to play back at me or call my bets..its more like looking to keep them confused
The absolute best way of manipulating players is with information they don't have. Think of a magician. Once you know how the trick is done, it's real hard to fool you. Misdirection is best done with no information.
Over and over, when players show their cards they may be sending a message to one person, but I usually make use of that information at some point. And I didn't pay for the information.
There may be some rare instances when showing cards is warranted, but there are only a handfull of players would know when to show, what that information would mean to each player on that table.
Cheers
Magi
I completely agree. I have taken an oath to never show an uncalled hand, I even mucked quads once when I really really wanted to brag about how much I ruled at that particular moment.
One if i've raised a bunch of pots in a row, i figure at some point i need to show that i'm raising with something. Usually accompanied with a comment about how great the cards i've been getting are. This obviously is designed to continue getting respect for my raises, no matter what the cards are.
The second i'm sharing but considering i'll likely be seeing most of you at the table i shouldn't. I like to show half decent hands that i decided not to defend my blinds with on occassion. While i realize this will make others more prone to attacking my blinds, it gets me insane respect if i play back out of the blinds. I can now play back with total junk even from my blinds and pick up nice pots which include the blind stealers raise. I actually was able to use this at Zithal's recent x-mas tourney with considerable success.
I want people to put me into a very very small box, and showing these hands in these hands it reinforces the view of me as a rock. My shows are all based on creating the view that i'm a tight passive player. Which most of the time i am, which is why no one sees it coming when I come out and play with junk or defend with a really low suited connecter etc... Cause they've put me into a very specific box.
For the record though this approach is a new one that i've been trying for the last two months or so, so if it'll be successful long term is yet to be seen.
But this goes against all poker logic. Why would I do this?
Because later on when I also want to limp in with weaker hands, and see a cheap flop, they only call hands I'm in rather than raising them. It's worked very well so far. But you have to be at one table for awhile to make it pay.
Chugs, I like the way you play. However, respect is not something you want at a table. It's far better to get someone to pop you back when you're holding aces, than to keep winning the blinds. I think it was you that posted asking why Gus is so effective. It's becacuse no one can put him on a hand, and they're terrified of walking into his traps. So, when you're stealing away, keep doing it -- especially with the goods. It's far better to take someone's whole stack than to take the blinds.
Forget about respect. It's better to not have your opponents respect you and make big mistakes. Believe me, most players can't you in a bag, let alone a box. And those that can put you in a box, say like Dave, they will use that information in ways to attack you. Much of your success has more to do with stack size, blind level and mood of you opponent. Most cannot put players in boxes.
Cheers
Magi
In fact if I am playing against a skilled opponent - or what I perceive to be a skilled opponent - and he/she shows their cards - I look right through it. For example if a good player shows cards to make everyone think he is a rock - I think the opposite. If that player shows bad cards looking for action - escpecially when he/she has played two hands out of the last 30 - he/she will not be gettting a lot of action from me. Although the showing of the bad cards will probably work against the other people at the table.
I like this answer...
At last year's WSOP a World Class Player (WCP) said to me "I hate it when you keep raising me with the best hand." Translation: "I think you are a rock." This was a complete green light to run him over until he caught on. I am not going to show this player a hand until I have to. He has me in the wrong box and I want him to leave me there.
On the other hand, occasionally a player may have you in the wrong box and you want to communicate that to him. For instance, against "rock type" players, showing a hand like 6-4s after a big re-steal puts them on notice that "they do not know what the hell is going on." This makes rocks very nervous and may make them even more rocklike. In other words, you can shrink their box by forcing them to play even tighter. A lot of players fear post-flop play because it's a lot harder than pre-flop. When they fear you could have almost any two cards they get really nervous and they "shut down." When you have a rock who is trying to climb out of his box and get a little uppity pre-flop, this can slow him down. He will want to have the goods because he is scared of your re-raise with 6-4s.
This is, I admit, a rare instance and is not generally found in online tournaments or local tournaments. You need "semi-skilled opponents" to put the fear on them by demonstrating that you are loose and reckless.
Good points. I have 0 experience at your level of play, or the players you play against, so always mucking my hand is probably better against the callibre of player I'm usually up against.
Half the time I swear they aren't even paying attention anyway.
I think there is no clear answer on this. I'd like to explore a couple of things with you.
The first is that exposing your cards to manipulate one person, exposes your possible mistakes to the table. When you show, everyone takes note. How do you manage how everyone interprets how you played the entire hand (not just the final action)?
The second is on how to manipulate others. I tend to find that people like the tight rockie, are very insecure about their play. I best manipulate these players by telling them what I had and then needling them by telling them what they hold. Kind of like when you rattled your opponent on your A9 journal hand. When I see the HAR I immediately attack verbally -- "woa, that was an exciting card, looks like you made the .....". I say feed the voices in their heads and let that eat away. Seeing the cards puts them at ease -- they know what happened. It's more fun when they don't know beacuase that puts more doubt in their minds and closes that box so tight that when they explode I'm usually holding the nuts. I may be over interpreting and would like to hear your thoughts on this approach.
Cheers
Magi
I think it's easy to overlook the fact that everytime you win a pot, you are showing your cards to the table. They're already seeing x% of the cards you play, no reason to increase it.
At Dave's level, I think it's a trick that will only work when you are unknown to the players. Once they've spent a few hours playing, they'll have an opinion that a few shown cards won't change.
Other players who are watching and paying attention already have a sense for what you are up to. You will confirm for them what they already suspect. It is, overall, undesirable to show this group your hands.
However, some players who fancy themselves as foxes but aren't do not know how to deal with a loose and aggressive player. They are trying to run the table. Generally, I want to run the table and I occassionally want to serve notice to this sort of of player that "you aren't dealing with kids here" (quoting Mike Matusow and Georgio).
Against the type of player you have described I think you are right. Don't show. Or, show to confirm what he suspects. When you re-steal with 6-4s don't show. That will cause him to stretch your box, even subconsciously, and make him think about calling next time. When you three bet with A-A and he folds, show him. You are confirming what he thinks.
I show big hands a lot more than little hands by the way. And, I don't show very many overall. Most "little skilled" players are pure rote players. They don't change. But, if you can get them calling you "just in case" then you will get there chips. Small pot poker picks up the little pots and when you are ready to "close the deal" you have them set up to call you because they will not differentiate between big bets and small bets.
Used sparingly and in the proper places, it can be another tool in the arsenal. imho
I prefer showing hands I win, rather than fold.