Call or fold here?

betrthanphil

PokerStars Game #53579590727: Tournament #342011253, $150+$12 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (75/150) - 2010/12/01 17:32:15 ET
Table '342011253 8' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Reraiseallin (3110 in chips)
Seat 2: Dajvey (1935 in chips)
Seat 3: Nels316 (4540 in chips)
Seat 4: BetrThanPhil (5182 in chips)
Seat 5: Dantes_11 (7249 in chips)
Seat 6: villarog (3830 in chips)
Seat 7: Jayzens (5744 in chips)
Seat 8: qwertyman1 (3840 in chips)
Seat 9: XXRONKYBOYXX (11205 in chips)
Reraiseallin: posts the ante 20
Dajvey: posts the ante 20
Nels316: posts the ante 20
BetrThanPhil: posts the ante 20
Dantes_11: posts the ante 20
villarog: posts the ante 20
Jayzens: posts the ante 20
qwertyman1: posts the ante 20
XXRONKYBOYXX: posts the ante 20
Dantes_11: posts small blind 75
villarog: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [Ah 8h]
Jayzens: folds
qwertyman1: folds
XXRONKYBOYXX: folds
Reraiseallin: folds
Dajvey: raises 150 to 300
Nels316: folds
BetrThanPhil: raises 1350 to 1650
Dantes_11: folds
villarog: raises 2160 to 3810 and is all-in
Dajvey: calls 1615 and is all-in
BetrThanPhil:?
I just like to put hands up like this to see what others on the forum think about these situations.

Sharantyr

I personally would fold here. You are just below 30 bb with the fold facing 2 aggressors with a weak ace, and would need 4 to the straight, or the miracle flush. Lots of time to find a better spot, especially for a player such as yourself.

Ofcourse I could be way off. Cue Mark with some math.

~Shar

Wetts1012

I guess the only reason you make a 3bet of that size is having the intentions of getting it in here vs. any action. So I guess you gotta get it in.

betrthanphil

was originally to isolate the short stack. bad move?

Wetts1012

betrthanphil wrote: »

was originally to isolate the short stack. bad move?

I like the 3bet but we have a weird stack size that is pretty vulnerable to action behind.

I prob go like 940/fold.

Unknown

i'm very suprised you would do this with a8s. i would think ATs minimum. as played i think id fold as we gotta think were lucky to be drawing to 3 aces. im more interested in hearing from you and others though.

jdAA88

Wetts1012 wrote: »

I like the 3bet but we have a weird stack size that is pretty vulnerable to action behind.

I prob go like 940/fold.

Yeah, there's no need to make it any bigger IMO

HammerDad

I probably fold to the initial raise more often then not. Although sometimes I will call the first raise depending on reads. If I 3 bet, I am probably going to 850 or so as it will probably give me the same effect.

Folding to the shove/call, we probably have 3 outs plus the flush draw. Not great odds.

I also agree that the 3 bet was too big. In reading your hand histories, that is something I see consistently. You raise too much and end up over committing yourself in marginal spots.

asxn557

I think it's a coin toss, not in terms of poker math but whether you'll beat the BB. The way the small stack played implies he has a big hand - he didn't shove as the first raiser but min-raised to get action which he got. The BB goes all-in get you out, but I think he has a hand worse than yours. I think you're behiind the small stack pre-flop but ahead of the BB. The pot is at 7630 before you call and it's 2160 to call - not great odds but not bad either. You're left with 1372 if you lose to both players, but you have the button now and have some time before your next SB, so you might still be in it. If small stack wins but you beat the BB, you'll end up just about where you started the hand.

The size of your bet implied you were nearly pot committed but not quite. The size of the BB's bet sensed weakness in you. I would have bet 600 and, if the other two played the same way, folded. A8 suited just isn't strong enough at this stage in the tourney to go all-in preflop. Like Sharantyr said, you should get better spots to go all-in.

Pretty tough to do all this in 10 seconds, eh?

windbreaker

This hand was badly misplayed.

- I don't like the iso at all. The opener starts the hand with about 14 bbs....you can't expect him to raise-fold very often.

- When you get it in vs the openers range, you still way behind his range. Your best case scenarios he still has 40% equity....while your worse case you have about 30%.

- Your 3 bet sizing is ugly. It went from 300 to 1650. You risk way too much, when you can get the same result if you had raised it to as little as 800.

With your raise size, your basically told the original raiser....I'm willing to get it all in with you...pls play your hand perfectly now and shove with all hands better than mine...and fold out all worse hands. The only thing good about the raise is that you might be able to bluff out A9/A10 type hands (I don't even think those types of hands are in his range because most ppl don't open min raise this shallow).

You're telegraphing your play so transparently. All players know that you would not fold to his shove. Also all players know you don't have a monster. No thinking player with a huge hand would ever iso this much.

- If your intentions are to get it in with the original raiser no matter what he does when it gets back to him...you can 3 bet less and have the rest of the players behind you tell you the strength of their hand without risking the extra 850 chips. The worse case situation is he will flat you and you play the pot in position.

- You're getting 3.5 to 1 on your call now....but with that action, you're lucky if you even have 20% equity. Calling and losing the hand cripples you. Folding still leaves you with a decent stack to work with.

PokerKai

windbreaker wrote: »

This hand was badly misplayed.

- I don't like the iso at all. The opener starts the hand with about 14 bbs....you can't expect him to raise-fold very often.

- When you get it in vs the openers range, you still way behind his range. Your best case scenarios he still has 40% equity....while your worse case you have about 30%.

- Your 3 bet sizing is ugly. It went from 300 to 1650. You risk way too much, when you can get the same result if you had raised it to as little as 800.

With your raise size, your basically told the original raiser....I'm willing to get it all in with you...pls play your hand perfectly now and shove with all hands better than mine...and fold out all worse hands. The only thing good about the raise is that you might be able to bluff out A9/A10 type hands (I don't even think those types of hands are in his range because most ppl don't open min raise this shallow).

You're telegraphing your play so transparently. All players know that you would not fold to his shove. Also all players know you don't have a monster. No thinking player with a huge hand would ever iso this much.

- If your intentions are to get it in with the original raiser no matter what he does when it gets back to him...you can 3 bet less and have the rest of the players behind you tell you the strength of their hand without risking the extra 850 chips. The worse case situation is he will flat you and you play the pot in position.

- You're getting 3.5 to 1 on your call now....but with that action, you're lucky if you even have 20% equity. Calling and losing the hand cripples you. Folding still leaves you with a decent stack to work with.

THIS...not much else to add. I think this encapsulates the situation perfectly

compuease

PokerKai wrote: »

THIS...not much else to add. I think this encapsulates the situation perfectly

Nice to see you here again Kai, stick around, your attendance is appreciated!

Unknown

K i want another shot,

utg+4 needs to be shoving top 30.6% of hands
hero needs to call with top 11.6% which includes ah8h
bb needs to over call with top 5.9%

we are only 3.1 to 1 against for equity in the hand and we're getting 3.46 to 1 pot odds

i don't think this is crazy anymore

both the initial raiser and hero invited weaker hands into the play....


what did the bb show......?

betrthanphil

I agree the 3 bet was too big, I usuallyy 3 bet smaller but in this situation for some reason I decided to go larger, I actually didnt think I was that far behind the range of the original raiser, they will either show up with a hand like AA or KK or have an average hand like qj. If he had any pair 22-jj I think he has to just shove. The original raiser had j10os and the BB had 99. I did call and got lucky and hit the ace. I dont like my big 3 bet here, but I do think that 3 betting here is the best play as I disagree for his range to be way bigger then A8 when minraising a short stack in late position, people do this a lot to make their hands look stronger then they really are, I see it all the time, and I even do it sometimes, rarely but in certain situations I do.

Unknown

i learned so much in this thread its unreal, thanks for the post.