Wierd low limit mtt spot

Richard~

What would you do on the turn here, I just automatically looked at stacks and shipped like 100% of my range that had a fraction of a chance to be good. But then I was like " wat <.< why did I just do that, maybe check calling is better than shoving ._. or maybe we're just never ever good here and should check fold"

The flop flat completely froze me up and I'm curious to hear some opinions on this

Full Tilt Poker Game #25628095945: $6,000 Guarantee (198532995), Table 55 - 200/400 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 08:14:17 ET - 2010/11/17
Seat 1: philjack1234 (11,815)
Seat 2: Juliiiiiii1 (5,317)
Seat 3: shjordy (3,340)
Seat 4: Sandman2610 (23,747)
Seat 5: HideABS (7,938)
Seat 6: bangoutnow (14,323)
Seat 7: frags555 (5,138)
Seat 8: llRichardll (6,477)
Seat 9: dh2028 (5,294)
philjack1234 antes 50
Juliiiiiii1 antes 50
shjordy antes 50
Sandman2610 antes 50
HideABS antes 50
bangoutnow antes 50
frags555 antes 50
llRichardll antes 50
dh2028 antes 50
philjack1234 posts the small blind of 200
Juliiiiiii1 posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to llRichardll [:ks :kd]
shjordy folds
Sandman2610 folds
HideABS has 15 seconds left to act
HideABS folds
bangoutnow has 15 seconds left to act
bangoutnow folds
frags555 folds
llRichardll raises to 1,000
dh2028 folds
philjack1234 folds
Juliiiiiii1 calls 600
*** FLOP *** [:10c :4c :9c]
Juliiiiiii1 checks
llRichardll bets 1,600
Juliiiiiii1 calls 1,600
*** TURN *** [:10c :4c :9c] [:3c]
Juliiiiiii1 checks
llRichardll bets 3,827, and is all in
Juliiiiiii1 folds
Uncalled bet of 3,827 returned to llRichardll
llRichardll mucks
llRichardll wins the pot (5,850)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,850 | Rake 0
Board: [Tc 4c 9c 3c]
Seat 1: philjack1234 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: Juliiiiiii1 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: shjordy folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Sandman2610 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: HideABS folded before the Flop
Seat 6: bangoutnow folded before the Flop
Seat 7: frags555 folded before the Flop
Seat 8: llRichardll collected (5,850), mucked
Seat 9: dh2028 (button) folded before the Flop

HammerDad

I raise pre just as you did and jam any non-ace flop. You have 2650 in the pot and 5427 in your stack so a SPR of about 2 to 1, so you've increased your stack but 40%+.

I know you want value out of your big hands, but with only having 15 big blinds pre, IMO you can't fold to a check raise there with less than 10BB remaining. And once you bet and are called or raised, the SPR swings to over 1 to 2.

If our stack was about 1000 or so less, I would probably open shove.

jdAA88

yeah I just ship the flop, too short to do anything else imo

Richard~

meh, that's almost 2x pot. What's the point in doing that? I'm obviously never folding flop though

jdAA88

think you'll still get called by lotsa junk

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

meh, that's almost 2x pot. What's the point in doing that? I'm obviously never folding flop though

i really think your shoving preflop or shoving the flop...anything else is a mistake...regardless of if an ace comes...

ok maybe not a mistake but im not folding from trying to suck in a caller not with 16 bb.....

reibs

With the stacks the way they are, it is a bit tricky. I think I play it same as you, hoping for a check-shove from julii on the flop. When he flats I think I hate my life. With that said, I dunno if I get away from this OTT with < 10 bigs left in my stack.

FWIW, I wouldn't shove flop either. Folds too many crushed hands.

DrTyore

Everyone that said shove the flop hates money.

As played, I think it's risky if player floats a 1 card flush, check for the river is asking his to steal though... tough spot and I think I'd need to know more about the player history.

Mark

Unknown

DrTyore wrote: »

Everyone that said shove the flop hates money.

just a guess but im feeling this way about anyone who considers folding this vs the bb at any point in the hand....

DrTyore

darbday wrote: »

just a guess but im feeling this way about anyone who considers folding this vs the bb at any point in the hand....

Didn't say that now did I?

Mark

betrthanphil

I love moeny, and I say shove flop. he has like 4k, basically any bet you make is gonna commit him to the pot anyways. Therefore a bet and shove should be the same thing, Unless your against a very very weak player who is gonna flat with some odd club that he wouldnt call a shove with. Get it in on flop all day IMO

Unknown

DrTyore wrote: »

Didn't say that now did I?

Mark

no no...wasn't implying you...

Richard~

betrthanphil wrote: »

I love moeny, and I say shove flop. he has like 4k, basically any bet you make is gonna commit him to the pot anyways. Therefore a bet and shove should be the same thing, Unless your against a very very weak player who is gonna flat with some odd club that he wouldnt call a shove with. Get it in on flop all day IMO

That still makes a normal bet more correct than a shove. I'm very aware that they're the same thing in practice. If we're gonna be picky he shouldn't call a flop shove with only flushouts unless he has implied odds. In that sense inducing him to shove is gonna put us in a good spot if he's shoving a random club that's not the ace.

Correct betsizing is always correct, I can't see how it wouldn't be lol

betrthanphil

Richard~ wrote: »

That still makes a normal bet more correct than a shove. I'm very aware that they're the same thing in practice. If we're gonna be picky he shouldn't call a flop shove with only flushouts unless he has implied odds. In that sense inducing him to shove is gonna put us in a good spot if he's shoving a random club that's not the ace.

Correct betsizing is always correct, I can't see how it wouldn't be lol

What does he think after you bet and he shoves your gonna fold? So how here is it important to induce a shove, there is no way to induce a shove here unless he likes his hand, which if he does he will call an all in anyways. The only difference would be if you checked the flop, betting all in or 1600 really there is no difference. If your trying to induce a shove, and dont think your gonna fold when a club hits anyways, you might as well just check the flop.

Richard~

betrthanphil wrote: »

What does he think after you bet and he shoves your gonna fold? So how here is it important to induce a shove, there is no way to induce a shove here unless he likes his hand, which if he does he will call an all in anyways. The only difference would be if you checked the flop, betting all in or 1600 really there is no difference. If your trying to induce a shove, and dont think your gonna fold when a club hits anyways, you might as well just check the flop.

This thread was about the turn spot but I guess the flop was more interesting.

I can't ever check that flop, I still want value from flushdraws. If I shove I should be folding out things that I beat so why not just keep it correct and clean?

betrthanphil

Your missing what Im saying, the blinds are big in relation to both of your stacks. The guy your playing has 10.5 BB after he calls your preflop bet. You have just a little more then that. The pot is 2650 i believe. Any bet you make will commit him unless he is really bad, Im not sure what the buy in to this tourney is. If you bet 1600 thats almost half his stack, please tell me what hand he could have to call that and fold on any turn, there isnt a hand. Therefore by shoving or betting it should be the same thing, the only difference is that after you bet 1600, you have put yourself in a very difficult spot on the turn, where I really dont see where you can be good, and now your left with like 9BB. Me personally would rather push on the flop either get the call on the flop or a fold, either Im happy with, as the pot is about half your current stack.

Richard~

betrthanphil wrote: »

Your missing what Im saying, the blinds are big in relation to both of your stacks. The guy your playing has 10.5 BB after he calls your preflop bet. You have just a little more then that. The pot is 2650 i believe. Any bet you make will commit him unless he is really bad, Im not sure what the buy in to this tourney is. If you bet 1600 thats almost half his stack, please tell me what hand he could have to call that and fold on any turn, there isnt a hand. Therefore by shoving or betting it should be the same thing, the only difference is that after you bet 1600, you have put yourself in a very difficult spot on the turn, where I really dont see where you can be good, and now your left with like 9BB. Me personally would rather push on the flop either get the call on the flop or a fold, either Im happy with, as the pot is about half your current stack.

We're thinking almost the same thing but we're seeing different differences between shoving and not shoving. In my mind there are no tough spots on turns, I'm just never folding and I don't think that can ever be bad in this spot.

I don't think we disagree or anything, we're just focusing on different aspects, at least I understand where you're coming from now

Unknown

Richard~ wrote: »

. In my mind there are no tough spots on turns, I'm just never folding and I don't think that can ever be bad in this spot.

i thought this thread was about how the turn is a tough spot and we might fold?

Richard~

darbday wrote: »

i thought this thread was about how the turn is a tough spot and we might fold?

It is, I'm just saying my justification for playing the flop like I did was me planning to never fold

HammerDad

I don't hate money, I look at it like, if villain is willing to call off half their stack on the flop, they would probably be willing put the rest in. And IMO a shove seems weak, like a AcX.

There are also a lot of turns that kill our action. IMO, I want maximum value where I believe I have my opponent crushed. We want to give them an incentive to get their stack in the middle.