Live 1/2 tough spot
Villian is loose aggressive, watched him rake in $300 with pure aggression without showing down much hands.
utg calls ($2) ($180)
utg+1 calls ($350)
villian (high jack) calls ($600 behind)
Hero (BU): AcKc raises to $15 ($400 behind)
blinds fold, everyone else calls. 4-way pot.
Pot=$63
FLOP
Kh Qh 7c
everyone checks
Hero bets $45
2 folds, villian calls
Pot=$153
TURN Qd
Villian checks
Hero ??? I think I'm in a way ahead way behind situation. Either I have him beat and betting here will usually get him to fold, or he has me crushed, or he's drawing hot. I don't want him to draw for free, but I don't want to swelter the pot with a mediocre hand. I check.
RIVER Ts
Board = Kh Qh 7c Qd Ts
Villian bets $100.
HERO ????
No idea what to do here. Either he's bluffing his missed draw or we are screwed. We are getting 2.5:1 odds here, the question is do we win more then 30% of the time? is it worth the call? How often do we have him here? what do you put him on?
utg calls ($2) ($180)
utg+1 calls ($350)
villian (high jack) calls ($600 behind)
Hero (BU): AcKc raises to $15 ($400 behind)
blinds fold, everyone else calls. 4-way pot.
Pot=$63
FLOP
Kh Qh 7c
everyone checks
Hero bets $45
2 folds, villian calls
Pot=$153
TURN Qd
Villian checks
Hero ??? I think I'm in a way ahead way behind situation. Either I have him beat and betting here will usually get him to fold, or he has me crushed, or he's drawing hot. I don't want him to draw for free, but I don't want to swelter the pot with a mediocre hand. I check.
RIVER Ts
Board = Kh Qh 7c Qd Ts
Villian bets $100.
HERO ????
No idea what to do here. Either he's bluffing his missed draw or we are screwed. We are getting 2.5:1 odds here, the question is do we win more then 30% of the time? is it worth the call? How often do we have him here? what do you put him on?
Comments
Has villian been known to check raise ugly turns?
I think your ahead here. Call.
Edit: bet the turn $80-$100 and you'd prob have your answer.
But this is more of an argument for a check, no?
If I bet on the turn and ships, I have to fold. I still lose approx. the same amount (maybe save me $20 if I bet your min value) and I don't get to a showdown.
Also by checking the turn he could bluff many rivers here with missed draws (essentially the only thing I'm ahead of that bets here, unless he's going to spew with a weaker K, which is totally possible given my action on the turn). Given that I have shown weakness, I highly think He'd bet a TJ hand or 2 hearts here.
I mean he has a wide range of heart draws, straight draws, k's and q's here. Of this range only the Q's got there.
I think we call and feel good about it.
+1
ya ...that missed flush draw.....just gotta know he shows up with queens lots....
actually....with your raise preflop unless he totally doesn't understand hand ranges i think you can totally bet the turn. He can't be sure you don't have a queen (or aa kk), and if you put in a small raise he's usually gonna only re raise without a queen. He'll check/call a queen, and check raise the river....but you wouldn't bet the river so no worries....
if he re raises the turn small then you can call and evaluate the river...knowing that many times he'll check a queen on the river and check some turn bluffs (he gives up because he doesn't know if you have a queen ,kk or aa)
if he shoves your turn raise then you can look for a better spot against a guy who either donk shove bluffs or donk shoves tirp queens...anyways if he shoves then you likely weren't gonna see a river cheap know matter what....
i use this turn play lots but its in the the 4 dollars.
its also important to bet the drawy bored...and i know your better than that (and likely me) and decided keeping the pot small is more important but i just think it helps justify a turn bet.....also stops villian from tilting me with tt aj (well maybe not.
I've realised that my weakest leak is going to town with AK too much. Checking the turn for me was, I think, my chance at pot control when deep stacked, plus inducing bluffs on the river.
After inducing a bluff on the river all of a sudden I'm thinking of folding....A little silly, but I'm glad you peeps had your 2 cents.
darbday, villian COULD have TT or AJ here, but it's so rare that I'm willing to give him a free card. I know in micro stakes they show up with this all too often, so when I'm playing micro tournies, which I do often, I will double barrell.
In live 1/2, after facing a 3/4 pot size bet, they usually don't call here, unless it's AhJh, but more often then not they will ship the flop.
Anyway, Villian ended up showing Qs8s for trips. I shake my head and say "nice hand". Freaking poker.
thx for the response, i do know tt aj happens but is more of a joke... its not to be feared so much, can't help but feel like i get rivered everytime i don't bet the turn, but thats totally about me not you.
i do sincerely think though if you made a value sized bet on the turn 50-65 bux maybe ...he woulda called and then checked the river to you....
great hand great post.
Right, but where am I getting value from on the turn? SD and FD for sure, KJ- as well.
I don't see any point in betting "for information". If he beats me allready, I lose a lot more then I lost. If we get C/R here, are we calling?
If he outdraws me on the river, He'll probably donk bet and I may or may not call depending on the card. Again I lose more.
If he has a KJ type of hand, He may not even call another bet due to the texture of the board. I just push him off. If he does call a bet here, do we fire another on the river?
The issue is this. I can't imagine a card that comes on the river that I want to value bet on. I'm scared of any heart, A, 9. They only thing I would really want to see is a rag or a K.
By checking the turn I think I lose less and win more when he tries to bluff us off / value bet his K. Betting the turn will only charge the draws to chase while simultaneously building a pot where I could be drawing almost dead to a boat or a Qx hand.
When I'm 200 bbs deep to start, I dont want this. If I had something like 50bbs behind me then for sure I ship the turn, but we are both deep and I prefer to keep the pot in control.
Although I'm generally ahead of his range, I don't crush it. Checking the turn will give me pot control and help me re-evaluate the river. It may also induce bluffs, which I think is a much more +ev play.
so if you bet the turn you think he re raises with a queen on the turn, or leads the river with a large bet when he has a queen? Even after you showed aggression on the turn?....i just thought if you bet the turn he will check the river...regardless of his hand.
Exactly.
Thats why I like to check the flop and have him bet the turn. look at it this way:
Scenario 1: He has a Q. I bet the turn. He either calls or raises.
-if he raises I think I ahve to fold. But depending on his action/amount I may call.
- if he flats the turn the bets the river I have no idea where I stand. I probably make the call just as I would when I check the turn, and lose a much larger pot.
Scenario 2: He has a draw. I bet the turn.
- He either calls or folds. Maybe once in a while he raises. If he raise I have no idea where I stand.
- he flats. He makes his draw and bets the river. Depending on the amount/card that comes I may or may not call. I either lose the same amount as checking when I fold, or I lose a much larger amount when I call.
- he flats. He misses his draw. He check/folds because I show strength. I a turn bet when he doesn't bluff at it.
- if I check the turn and he has a draw, he may decide to bluff at it when he misses, as its the only chance he has at winning the pot.
Scenario 3: He has a weaker K. This is the only time I make money by betting the turn. Even then, he may or may not call, as he has to give me credit for a good hand.
In all these scenarios combined I can't really see where betting the turn really give me that much mroe value.
Scenario 1: He has a Q. I bet the turn. He either calls or raises.
I doubt a guy re raises with a queen especially a spewtard (a donk) who wouldn't want to bet you off the hand. He's gotta think he just sucked you in. And i think he likely checks the river to suck you in since you bet the turn so your likely to bet the river.
Scenario 2: He has a draw. I bet the turn.
Then you were correct to bet. If he raises the river big you gotta put him on a queen or better, knowing he'd be hard pressed to bet into you out of position with a bluff (cause he can't be certain you won't re raise with a queen). and if his river bet plus your bet is less than 100 dollars you could for sure call regardless.
Scenario 3: He has a weaker K.
he can't re re raise not knowing you don't have a queen but again I figure he is raising with a hand like this or a bluff not a queen. and you would be correct to bet because you have the best hand, and he'd be hard pressed to put a big bet in on the river i think to.
I think in all cases you induce a call on the turn and a check on the river, but you won't bet the river its just a cheaper showdown.
I guess it comes down to if hes a spewtard then hes a donk, and its a scarier board for that type of player if he doesn't have a queen and you play it with controled aggression.
I'll have to look for this type of situation in the future and make sure im not betting to much here.
I just think a bet on the turn lets you control the pot if he has a queen
There's no reason for him not to raise. He saw me bet the flop and turn, he's gotta give me credit for something. Once he hits trips I can't see him NOT raising. He MAY go flat/check, but there really is no reason for him to do so. This would be the opposite of spewing.
True.
If he's a spewtard, which we labeled him for now, he sure can C/R with a K thinking I was barrelling nothing. Although its unlikely, We can't take it out of his arsenal. Of course he's not likely betting the river here, he also may or may not call. But really, If I throw $100 on the turn, he's probably in the mindset of "either I ship, or I fold" knowing he has to face a big bet on the river. It's really hard for me to call a ship although possible, and it's not profitable if he folds.
I really really think this is uncommon due to the evidence stated above.
It's very hard to control aggression..... Controlling the pot here for me is to check the turn, and value bet a checked river, or flat his bet.
I just don't see how this is possible. In the one scenario where he decides to go flat/check, I still lose the same amount if I go check/call.
Although I get mroe value from the draws/weaker K's, I lost a lot more when He does have a Q. Which leads me to something I forgot to mention.
Scenario 4: I'm allready beaten.
If he has KQ or 77 or something stupid like Q7 (definetely possible since he showed up with Q8, although I'm not counting on him having this)
I'm screwed. I need a river K. Betting into a pot on the turn where I'm way ahead/way behind gets us into a lot of trouble. By checking the turn I can more safely call a bet.
EDIT: darbday, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree. I highly doubt we'll see eye to eye on this.
naw i don't need to disagree, just to hash it out and learn your thought process....much thx. /end thread.
On the turn you are way ahead way behind against hands that made a pair on the flop but it is still expensive to give a free card to a draw. Betting something around 45% of the pot in order to charge the draws and also for value against pairs and fold to a check raise, which is probably three queens.
I guess the main point behind taking the line you did would be to compel your opponent to spazz the river, and the flush draw did miss, so given the line you took a call sounds reasonable and you are a lot stronger than the hand you have represented. C-betting 4 way shows alot more strength than c-betting heads up but it is also fairly unlikely he called the flop with a queen and even more unlikely you were out flopped.
So in conclusion, I guess nice hand, and snap call the river.