Math help please

Hi. I am new to this forum and thought i'd ask a question, hopefully that is alright.

I have read lots on the rule of 4 and 2. From what I understand, to find the approximate percentage of completing your hand, you multiply your outs by 4 after the flop and 2 after the turn?

If that is correct how do I use this in relation to pot odds? could someone explain this in the simplest way possible? I really would like to start using more math in my game, I think it will help me out a lot.

Thanks a lot,

Nick

Comments

  • Here's a pretty good explaination. Not going to type it out here, it's been done like 5000 times.

    Poker Math - How to Calculate Pot Odds and Equity: Equity - PokerListings.com
  • If I don't get this math down, I probably will not improve my game.......correct?
  • Card Whale wrote: »
    If I don't get this math down, I probably will not improve my game.......correct?

    Well it does limit you.. but it's not the most important thing.... Approximation is good enough, don't worry about exact %'s...

    Where are you in Canada, do you play live?
  • Ok, i'll keep that in mind. I'm in the Okanagan, which is in BC. hopefully I don't get made fun of too much here but I don't really play yet cause I'm 18. The age to play here is 19. I play home games with my friends like once every couple months, no one is interested enough to play more except for me. I play online in the stupid play money games because that's all I can do haha. I've read a bunch of books, some by Brunson, Negraneau and Gus Hansen and more. I watch HSP, The Big Game and basically whatever game is on every night on tv for about an hour. I'm trying to really get a hold of some of this math stuff because it's what I need to be able to compete once i'm 19 in a couple of months. I am going to Calgary at the end of October and have about $300 bucks put aside for a game or 2. I am trying to improve as much as possible without being at the tables!

    I'll keep reading the forums and take in what you guys write about. P.S. - that link you posted was pretty easy to understand, thanks

    Nick
  • PokerStars Game #50671269150: Tournament #318157865, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2010/10/05 19:11:02 PT [2010/10/05 22:11:02 ET]
    Table '318157865 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: IcedogMVP (2795 in chips)
    Seat 4: forboon (2725 in chips)
    Seat 5: Sharantyr (3480 in chips)
    IcedogMVP: posts small blind 75
    forboon: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to forboon [9d Qd]
    Sharantyr: calls 150
    IcedogMVP: calls 75
    forboon: raises 450 to 600
    Sharantyr: folds
    Sharantyr said, "squeezzzzzeeeee"
    IcedogMVP: calls 450
    *** FLOP *** [Ad Tc 3d]
    IcedogMVP: bets 2125
    Forboon:....does his homework......


    1)

    putting villain on a pair, jj, qq, ak, etc...exluding (aa and kk from no preflop raise)

    our outs give us about 40-50% equity....ill avg it at about 43% ( i think thats like 10 outs with rule of four)......so villain wins 57%....

    57/43 = 1.3 odds against us....


    2)

    the pot is 3400 and it costs 2100 to call..... 3400/2100 = 1.6 we get on our money ......


    3)
    since our pot odds are greater than our hand equity and theres no more money to be bet......forboon should call....


    :(


    don't know if its right but someone can straighten it from there......
  • darbs post is a good example. Once you have that sorted out, then we get into implied odds, the odds that you can get more of your opponents chips on future streets. (assuming you or he aren't all-in that is)
  • compuease wrote: »
    darbs post is a good example. Once you have that sorted out, then we get into implied odds, the odds that you can get more of your opponents chips on future streets. (assuming you or he aren't all-in that is)

    omg...did i win?........this was a huge leak that i may just now have started to figure out......

    haha...makes you wonder what game i was playin hey?
  • 1 - always try and put you're opponent on a hand to figure out your outs?

    2 - 10 outs from............9 d's and a Q?

    3 - 57/43 = the chance Hero wins vs the chance Villain wins? what if you have more outs than he will (you have 56%)...is that 56\44? - are you guys all really good with math or do you just memorize these fractions to decimals?

    Sorry for dumb questions!
  • Card Whale wrote: »
    I play online in the stupid play money games because that's all I can do haha.

    find a way to play online for money the play money games don't help....and read stuff on bankroll management first....
  • darbday wrote: »
    find a way to play online for money the play money games don't help....and read stuff on bankroll management first....

    I can't i'm 18!

    and I have read lots on bankroll management, why, what are you advising?
  • Welcome to the forum! Always nice to see more from the West :)

    There are always ways to play online even being under 19. Set up an instadebit account through your bank account is the easiest.

    Regardless, the math is important. But, it isn't THAT important to be to the decimal point..as was mentioned, an approximation on the fly is usually close enough.

    Pick up a copy of "Theory of Poker"..that will break everything down step by step. Or..shoot me your email and I can send you an ebook.

    Reading strategy forums (such as the ones on here) are also great learning tools. The more you can learn, the farther you are ahead of the masses.

    Good luck!
  • just my two cents worth but pot odds are not the end all, be all. Implied odds are a more important consideration. As a simple example, if you have 56h on a board of 3h4cKd and the pot has $5 in it and the other player bets $10, you are not getting the right pot odds to make the call. But if you both have $200 behind, implied odds would supercede pot odds and you would definitely make the call. In other words, risking $10 for a chance to win his whole stack of $200 is worth it given your 8 outs.

    Always consider the size of the other guy's stack when considering pot odds/implied odds. Also important when considering calling a pre-flop raise.

    You can download Pokerstove for free which will give you equity calcs for any hand situation.
  • Thanks Dennis and PJ! awesome stuff to hear. See you around the Forum
  • You can play online at pokerstars or fulltilt without being 19 years old.. only have to be 18 to get a credit card or set up an instadebit account..

    Reading only does so much if you can't get the hands in to practice, but I understand as I was a similar position when I started..

    You asked if we are all really good at math and I can say for myself that you don't need to be at all. It's all really simple math, anyone who graduated high school should be able to do it. I started out really simple with the math so I could do it in my head quickly and as I moved I just weigh it out in my head, what am I getting on my money ( calling 100 to win 600 ) and what are my chances of winning..I believe there is 6 cards left in the deck after the flop that would give me the winning hand..So I know from this I have to win it atleast once out of every 6 times to be profitable, but I am going to hit my outs 1 out of every 4 times if the hand is magically checked down to the river right there.

    If you want to make it sound more ''mathy'' , roughly 25% I will win this hand if and I only have to win it once out of every 6 times or roughly 14% of the time to be profitable.



    I will reiterate what a lot are saying though that the math is important to understand and should influence a lot of your decisions, but don't think you need to be some math wiz and always make the the mathematically correct play to win.

    A lot of things that are overlooked when guys start out and I wish someone would have told me is the importance of knowing yourself and what will set you off or put you on tilt, setting good limitations and practicing good bankroll management. I started playing when I was 19 and I would put my entire roll on 1/2 NL online game and make like $200.00 in a day and then lose it all moving up a limit in like an hour, I had no idea how you were supposed todo things,it's just been the past year I've started taking the game seriously and now that I do I am just starting to recoup my losses from when I was a complete donk. The internet is full of resources on topics like this from guys who have seen/done it all.

    ps. For math help I actually like this page a little more then the one linked to you above..


    Poker Ratio Odds Chart | Ratio Odds
  • Card Whale wrote: »
    1 - always try and put you're opponent on a hand to figure out your outs?

    2 - 10 outs from............9 d's and a Q?

    3 - 57/43 = the chance Hero wins vs the chance Villain wins? what if you have more outs than he will (you have 56%)...is that 56\44? - are you guys all really good with math or do you just memorize these fractions to decimals?

    Sorry for dumb questions!

    1-well that's the tricky part... your not sure what he has but you think you need a flush to win. sometimes you'll calculate a few possibilities and decide whats more likely or just average them etc.

    2-yes something like that.....sometimes for example a queen might not be an out....or perhaps, he has a bigger flush draw like KdJd......

    3-if you have the winning percentage then your opp then you will surely call and try to get as much money in the pot as possible....
  • darbday wrote: »
    PokerStars Game #50671269150: Tournament #318157865, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2010/10/05 19:11:02 PT [2010/10/05 22:11:02 ET]
    Table '318157865 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: IcedogMVP (2795 in chips)
    Seat 4: forboon (2725 in chips)
    Seat 5: Sharantyr (3480 in chips)
    IcedogMVP: posts small blind 75
    forboon: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to forboon [9d Qd]
    Sharantyr: calls 150
    IcedogMVP: calls 75
    forboon: raises 450 to 600
    Sharantyr: folds
    Sharantyr said, "squeezzzzzeeeee"
    IcedogMVP: calls 450
    *** FLOP *** [Ad Tc 3d]
    IcedogMVP: bets 2125
    Forboon:....does his homework......

    lol
  • Hobbes wrote: »
    lol

    and i actually folded....i marked the hand cause i highly suspected twas a call....and shar made a good call as i went for the infamous squeeeeeeeze play....
  • darbday wrote: »
    and i actually folded....i marked the hand cause i highly suspected twas a call....and shar made a good call as i went for the infamous squeeeeeeeze play....

    That wasn't a squeeze. A steal maybe. Squeeze nope.
    nice (possible) stop and go by IceDog though
  • Hobbes wrote: »
    That wasn't a squeeze. A steal maybe. Squeeze nope.
    nice (possible) stop and go by IceDog though

    yes.....
  • darbday wrote: »
    PokerStars Game #50671269150: Tournament #318157865, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2010/10/05 19:11:02 PT [2010/10/05 22:11:02 ET]
    Table '318157865 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: IcedogMVP (2795 in chips)
    Seat 4: forboon (2725 in chips)
    Seat 5: Sharantyr (3480 in chips)
    IcedogMVP: posts small blind 75
    forboon: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to forboon [9d Qd]
    Sharantyr: calls 150
    IcedogMVP: calls 75
    forboon: raises 450 to 600
    Sharantyr: folds
    Sharantyr said, "squeezzzzzeeeee"
    IcedogMVP: calls 450
    *** FLOP *** [Ad Tc 3d]
    IcedogMVP: bets 2125
    Forboon:....does his homework......


    1)

    putting villain on a pair, jj, qq, ak, etc...exluding (aa and kk from no preflop raise)

    our outs give us about 40-50% equity....ill avg it at about 43% ( i think thats like 10 outs with rule of four)......so villain wins 57%....

    57/43 = 1.3 odds against us....


    2)

    the pot is 3400 and it costs 2100 to call..... 3400/2100 = 1.6 we get on our money ......


    3)
    since our pot odds are greater than our hand equity and theres no more money to be bet......forboon should call....


    :(


    don't know if its right but someone can straighten it from there......

    I had ATo, I don't really remember this, but I think I knocked out Shar with this hand.
  • Hobbes wrote: »
    That wasn't a squeeze. A steal maybe. Squeeze nope.
    nice (possible) stop and go by IceDog though
    darbday wrote: »
    yes.....

    What are you saying yes to? ???
  • Hobbes wrote: »
    What are you saying yes to? ???

    this doobie...and your post
  • Math is a bit overrated. When you have a flush draw on the flop, you might have the right odds to win the pot, but if you miss on the turn, can you handle a bigger bet on the turn.
  • kingkao86 wrote: »
    Math is a bit overrated. When you have a flush draw on the flop, you might have the right odds to win the pot, but if you miss on the turn, can you handle a bigger bet on the turn.

    this can be accounted for using math.....
  • kingkao86 wrote: »
    Math is a bit overrated. When you have a flush draw on the flop, you might have the right odds to win the pot, but if you miss on the turn, can you handle a bigger bet on the turn.

    Am I the only one who salivates every time I hear these words? Makes me take a deep breath and look forward to a 12 hour session. Unfortunately it rarely lasts that long, 'cause their pockets are rarely infinitely deep, and I'm not a big fan of IOUs (having been burned a couple times).
  • iNano78 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who salivates every time I hear these words?

    no
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