Bottom of Calling range

Wetts1012Wetts1012
in MTT Strategy
Stove not working on my laptop. Plz to be letting me know the bottom of your calling range here. Think I have it, but need to check.

Assume villain shoves ATC.

PokerStars Game #49199092995: Tournament #328010877, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (2000/4000) - 2010/09/06 0:01:45 ETTable '328010877 78' 9-max
Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: ORtrack05 (65670 in chips)
Seat 2: bigoots (87755 in chips)
Seat 3: Bunkerwaker (103368 in chips)
Seat 4: Wetts1012 (37047 in chips)
Seat 5: herschelw (290991 in chips)
Seat 6: wmustar (134410 in chips)
Seat 7: trist385 (84306 in chips)
Seat 8: Richie912 (146798 in chips)
Seat 9: hugodarosa (134169 in chips)
ORtrack05: posts the ante 400
bigoots: posts the ante 400
Bunkerwaker: posts the ante 400
Wetts1012: posts the ante 400
herschelw: posts the ante 400
wmustar: posts the ante 400
trist385: posts the ante 400
Richie912: posts the ante 400
hugodarosa: posts the ante 400
Bunkerwaker: posts small blind 2000
Wetts1012: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Wetts1012 [xx xx]
herschelw: folds
wmustar: folds
trist385: folds
Richie912: folds
hugodarosa: folds
ORtrack05: folds
bigoots: folds
Bunkerwaker: raises 40000 to 44000
Wetts1012:
«1

Comments

  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Likely A8+, any pair, any 2 face's.... course I'm a rock... ymmv
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    compuease wrote: »
    Likely A8+, any pair, any 2 face's.... course I'm a rock... ymmv

    I didnt ask what range we turbo snap........

    We have to be like 60/40 in the good against ATC range with this.

    Im pretty sure we only need 48ish.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Nevermind stove back working. Still interested to hear tho.
  • VekkedVekked
    compuease wrote: »
    Likely A8+, any pair, any 2 face's.... course I'm a rock... ymmv

    vs. ATC? :S

    Something like this is probs close:

    22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T8s+,A2o+,K3o+,Q8o+,J9o+

    If he's literally 32o+, then like...

    22+, Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx, T5o+,T2s+, 96o+, 95s+, 87, 85s+, 76s
  • UnknownUnknown
    any pair any ace k9 up all broadway. 98 and t9 suited

    but now that i read this i copy vekked
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    still like mine best...... I don't copy...

    And now that you're my horse... better pay attention.. :)
  • moosemoose
    Vekked wrote: »
    vs. ATC? :S


    22+, Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx, T5o+,T2s+, 96o+, 95s+, 87, 85s+, 76s

    this

    Btw what are you and herschelw doing in the same $10 game? WTF?
  • Richard~Richard~
    ATC are a bit of a stretch don't you think? Or are you assuming villain is just that bad?

    Edit: Also I did this

    Chips if win: 3600+32647+37047= 68894

    Chips if fold: 32647

    Therefore we must win 47,4% of the time so be careful not to assign a spew range here
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    moose wrote: »
    this

    Btw what are you and herschelw doing in the same $10 game? WTF?

    It was the 10 cubed.

    And he took a 200K pot off me KK > AhKh on a KQJ 2heart board. Cooleraments.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Richard~ wrote: »
    ATC are a bit of a stretch don't you think?

    I mean hes not shoving the 2/3 but you know what I mean.

    Anyway I called with the Q8ss and figured that was close to the bottom of my range.

    Ran into QJ but got there, YAY.
  • MiloMilo
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    I mean hes not shoving the 2/3 but you know what I mean.

    Anyway I called with the Q8ss and figured that was close to the bottom of my range.

    Ran into QJ but got there, YAY.

    Standard Wetts strategy, then . . .

    With your stack, I would have said any Ace, King, or Queen is a shove. Jack down to about J/7, 10/8. But what the hell do I know?
  • UnknownUnknown
    Richard~ wrote: »
    ATC are a bit of a stretch don't you think? Or are you assuming villain is just that bad?

    Edit: Also I did this

    Chips if win: 3600+32647+37047= 68894

    Chips if fold: 32647

    Therefore we must win 47,4% of the time so be careful not to assign a spew range here


    where does the percent come from...thank you sirs....?
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    darbday wrote: »
    where does the percent come from...thank you sirs....?

    chips if fold / chips if win.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    chips if fold / chips if win.

    man thats tough...i just can't stop running hand ranges through my head long enough to think...
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    darbday wrote: »
    man thats tough...i just can't stop running hand ranges through my head long enough to think...



    Good job Darb! squeeze more secrets out of wetts now.:D


    By the way, use your calculator on your computer while playing, ez game.;)
  • UnknownUnknown
    philliivey wrote: »
    Good job Darb! squeeze more secrets out of wetts now.:D


    By the way, use your calculator on your computer while playing, ez game.;)

    the force will do just fine thank you
  • VekkedVekked
    Richard~ wrote: »
    ATC are a bit of a stretch don't you think? Or are you assuming villain is just that bad?

    Edit: Also I did this

    Chips if win: 3600+32647+37047= 68894

    Chips if fold: 32647

    Therefore we must win 47,4% of the time so be careful not to assign a spew range here

    My 2nd range is wrong cuz I suck at math. Vs. ATC if we need 47.4% to breakeven we can call:

    22+, Ax, Kx, Q3+, Q2s+, J7+, J3s+, T8+, T6s+, 98, 97s
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    I understand (sort of) the math to this but isn't this (needing certain % to call to make this profitable) more of a cash game perspective? I always understood and played as if chips saved are more valuable in a tournament than a cash game... I still feel like it is spew to simply use math to determine whether I should call or not. In other words I want a little more of an advantage than you guys are proposing. Now pushing is totally different and I get that but calling with weak hands is just that.. weak, imo anyways...

    I really don't like disagreeing with some of the more seasoned tournament players on here but what the heck, it makes for good discussion....
  • UnknownUnknown
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    I didnt ask what range we turbo snap........


    this has made me laugh out loud twice now...
  • UnknownUnknown
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    chips if fold / chips if win.


    now if my 2 cards are ahead of the sb shoving range how do i know if im taking it every time or waiting for a better spot....ie first to act...:confused:
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    compuease wrote: »
    Likely A8+, any pair, any 2 face's.... course I'm a rock... ymmv

    really?
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    :confused:
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    really?
    Not quite sure how to respond, you agree or disagree?
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    Im kinda tight lol I would say any A here, K8s or better, maybe worse depends how i feel at the time, Any Q8s or better, J8s or better, 109os or 108os, even 107s might fall into my ranger here. 89s 79s, 67s or 56s. Any pair Obv. This is concrete really depends how I feel and how the sb has been playing, also how close to the money etc.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    compuease wrote: »
    :confused:Not quite sure how to respond, you agree or disagree?

    don't let those whippersnappers push you around so much
  • VekkedVekked
    darbday wrote: »
    now if my 2 cards are ahead of the sb shoving range how do i know if im taking it every time or waiting for a better spot....ie first to act...:confused:

    Take it every time if it's def +EV. The only reason I wouldn't call all of the +EV hands vs. an ATC range here is if I'm not quite sure if the villain is shoving literally 32o or not. I might assume he's shoving 85-90% to be safe and call everything that's profitable vs. that range.
  • VekkedVekked
    compuease wrote: »
    I understand (sort of) the math to this but isn't this (needing certain % to call to make this profitable) more of a cash game perspective? I always understood and played as if chips saved are more valuable in a tournament than a cash game... I still feel like it is spew to simply use math to determine whether I should call or not. In other words I want a little more of an advantage than you guys are proposing. Now pushing is totally different and I get that but calling with weak hands is just that.. weak, imo anyways...

    I really don't like disagreeing with some of the more seasoned tournament players on here but what the heck, it makes for good discussion....

    Needing a certain % to call is def just a fundamental poker perspective. In cash games you want to take every profitable edge you can that will make you money beyond the rake. In MTTs it's a bit more arguable. I think you're alluding to the value of tournament life, and your last chip >>>>> your 100th chip. This is definitely true. In single table tournaments you have to live and die by this since if you play purely cEV you're gonna be losing a lot of money. In MTTs it's a lot more abstract since cEV and $EV are much closer until the final table for the most part. You should always be using math to choose whether you should call or not, but since tourney life does have some value (even though it's hard to quantify), you might want to use some margin of error, such as I suggested above by assuming they're slightly tighter, or by only taking spots with a certain % edge, not ones that are basically breakeven.

    But, you have to be careful to not over compensate for your tourney life, since that's where we as MTT regs are making our money, from players who aren't willing to take a stand to us and will let us exploit them to no end. For instance, using your calling range for shoves unadjusted, if we played heads up with probably up to 20-25BB stacks and I shoved every single hand, I'd win in the long run since it's so exploitably tight. Though, your range could definitely be closer to optimal vs. the average player at lower stakes since they're not shoving near as much as they can/should.
  • Richard~Richard~
    Just out of curiousity, which range is proitable to shove BvB against a decent opponent with 10 BB effective stacks? I know it's not ATC so is it like 85%? 75%?
  • actyperactyper
    Stack sizes matter so it wouldn't just be the effective stack.
  • VekkedVekked
    Richard~ wrote: »
    Just out of curiousity, which range is proitable to shove BvB against a decent opponent with 10 BB effective stacks? I know it's not ATC so is it like 85%? 75%?

    Top 70-75 vs. a boss calling nearly perfect. 80% vs. someone good/on the tighter side.
  • superherosuperhero
    I hate shoving in poker tournaments altogether!
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