Thoughts? Hand in the 109 2R 1A

betrthanphilbetrthanphil
in Brags, Beats & Variance
PokerStars Game #49046949391: Tournament #328010764, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (60/120) - 2010/09/02 19:25:25 ET
Table '328010764 2' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: gator doc (4440 in chips)
Seat 2: BetrThanPhil (9350 in chips)
Seat 3: r1353poker (12080 in chips)
Seat 4: AAAAinurface (10265 in chips)
Seat 5: gabyalp (3185 in chips)
Seat 6: sukin12 (9075 in chips)
Seat 7: EVMPKR (5982 in chips)
Seat 8: watchout101 (4100 in chips)
Seat 9: badbeatman06 (9910 in chips)
gator doc: posts the ante 15
BetrThanPhil: posts the ante 15
r1353poker: posts the ante 15
AAAAinurface: posts the ante 15
gabyalp: posts the ante 15
sukin12: posts the ante 15
EVMPKR: posts the ante 15
watchout101: posts the ante 15
badbeatman06: posts the ante 15
r1353poker: posts small blind 60
AAAAinurface: posts big blind 120
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [Jc Kc]
gabyalp: folds
sukin12: folds
EVMPKR: raises 480 to 600
watchout101: folds
badbeatman06: folds
gator doc: folds
BetrThanPhil: calls 600
r1353poker: folds
AAAAinurface: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jd Qd 5s]
EVMPKR: checks
BetrThanPhil: checks
*** TURN *** [Jd Qd 5s] [6h]
EVMPKR: checks
BetrThanPhil: bets 485
EVMPKR: raises 1075 to 1560
BetrThanPhil: calls 1075
*** RIVER *** [Jd Qd 5s 6h] [8s]
EVMPKR: bets 3807 and is all-in
BetrThanPhil: calls 3807

Heres the hand, Want to hear what you guys think then Ill say what i think and the results.

Comments

  • JimmyHoJimmyHo
    don't like the call with KJ pre-flop for 6 x BB. If a J or K come on the flop, where do you stand?? really don't like the call on the turn. Re-raise usually indicates a decent hand. Fold on the turn and move on.

    KJ is one of those hands that gets you into a lot of trouble.
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    Normally I do have a tight range for 6xBB however Ive noticed in this tourney before when people raise that big it inidcates a hand like AK or AQ or even 1010. I pay 600 when I think I can use position against him with many flops. When the board came qj5, I thought it was a great flop, and I was probably way a head as I wasnt worried about AA or KK or even QQ, JJ was possible though, so I checked after him to see a turn and not get into deep. when the turn was a 6 and he checked again I thought forsure I was ahead, what we he check twice there, with a 6xBB raise pre. I just really thought I was good. Some time is ok to go with your gut :P
  • UnknownUnknown
    we had a tt early position thread going not sure if you were in it but there was an argument on how to play them. raising bigger than usual seemed like the way to go be it always gave awkward lines anyway you looked at it.

    i like and will look for the appropriate moment to use this. i can even see villain playing ako this way right to the end, course in my land villain can show up with anything and everything
  • JimmyHoJimmyHo
    betrthanphil wrote: »
    I pay 600 when I think I can use position against him with many flops.

    so, then why did you not bet the flop and try and take it down at that point? You represented your hand on the turn, got re-raised, and you still called w second pair?
  • Lord_PhanLord_Phan
    You have a jack in your hand, a jack on the board and you think JJ is more likely then QQ or AQ? Which by the way all beat your hand. So quick question what hand DID you put them on that you could beat? You called therefore you thought you were ahead, the hands that can be played aggressively in this spot that you can beat are A-K suited Diamonds, A-10 Diamonds, 10-9 diamonds(Which has you beat on the river) 10-9 any(also has you beat on the river), and maybe King-Ten. AA, AQ, AJ, QJ, 10-9, KK, QQ, JJ, all have you beat.
  • Richard~Richard~
    pokerJAH wrote: »
    so, then why did you not bet the flop and try and take it down at that point? You represented your hand on the turn, got re-raised, and you still called w second pair?

    meh, betting the flop here is awful imo, we're NEVER folding out anything better and rarely get value from a worse hand meaning we'll just end up turning our hand into a bluff for no reason

    . And yeah, sure we're repping what we have on the turn but why don't you tell me what he's repping? ^^' He shows up with no pair no draw here a bunch after checking twice and if he did have a draw it missed on the river


    Also, opr villain, he's pretty terrible, I'd probably take the same line
  • T8urmoneyT8urmoney
    Richard~ wrote: »
    meh, betting the flop here is awful imo, we're NEVER folding out anything better and rarely get value from a worse hand meaning we'll just end up turning our hand into a bluff for no reason

    . And yeah, sure we're repping what we have on the turn but why don't you tell me what he's repping? ^^' He shows up with no pair no draw here a bunch after checking twice and if he did have a draw it missed on the river


    Also, opr villain, he's pretty terrible, I'd probably take the same line

    Agree....think this is a villain dependant call. If he is indeed a fish, I think I make the call. If he's a decent player, I don't think he shoves with air too much here.....so folding would be my choice.
  • reibsreibs
    I dunno, I am having a hard time believing that the check-raise on turn was a bluff. It is likely that he thought you were bluffing when you bet it, but can a fish really check raise you here with air? I mean this flop hits so many different hands that you could have...

    And I can totally see a bad player checking both the turn and flop here if he flopped a set or even two pair - QJ. I think with that big of a pre-flop raise, it usually signals that bad players like their hand. They usually don't know enough to disguise their bet sizing. Then when he didn't cont. bet after that big of a PF raise, I think something is up here. The check-raise on turn further adds to it.

    I think the only hands that you beat that he could show up with here is the pairs from like 8s-10s .... Or complete air. Is this enough to call the all in, I dunno. I guess that would mostly depend on how agg/pass he has been. I also don't play these high of stakes, so take it for what its worth.
  • UnknownUnknown
    reibs wrote: »
    I think with that big of a pre-flop raise, it usually signals that bad players like their hand.

    i think it also sometimes shows hands that can be awkward from early position such such as 99 tt jj and ak aqo
  • reibsreibs
    darbday wrote: »
    i think it also sometimes shows hands that can be awkward from early position such such as 99 tt jj and ak aqo

    Definitely, hence my prediction of 8s-10s being the only hands that he could hope to beat. I just think that if a bad player is playing in a $300 event, they will usually be scared money, unless they are a rich bad player. Scared money does not check raise the turn here with a mid pocket pair imo. And if they do check raise, do you think they will shove the river with very little FE?

    I take JJ out of the range since its so unlikely to see all four of them. The other hands make up a much larger number of combinations.

    Personally, I think villian has one of QJ, QQ, KK, AA, 55, 66. I dunno this seems like a pretty tight range, but I just cant come up with any other hands that he would play like this... I have officially confused myself. Again.
  • UnknownUnknown
    reibs wrote: »
    Scared money does not check raise the turn here with a mid pocket pair imo. And if they do check raise, do you think they will shove the river with very little FE?

    i can see a check raise with tt ak and a flush draw, but more importantly the guy who does that many time will shove the river with air i think.
  • betrthanphilbetrthanphil
    People tend to raise bigger these days with AK, Ive noticed that a lot. People dont like to play it that much because they dont know how to play it once they miss the flop, when I saw his raise pre I instantly thought AK, but also thought maybe 99 or 1010. I said jj was a possibility because not many people like JJ and some just like to take the blinds. Now when the flop came off I thought it was a GREAT flop, I thought it put me ahead of all the hands I thought he might have pre, AK,1010, or 99. Once he checks I think AKd is out of the question, unless hes looking to check raise all in. So I check because there is no need to bet here, give him a chance to reraise. There arent very many cards I dont want to come up. No 10 or A is really all Im looking for. So by checking not only do I not give him a chance to push me off on the flop but I also put doubts into his head about what I have, he starts to think maybe AK is good, or maybe I have 99 or something. Once the turn is a 6 and he checks, I think Im huge, why would he check AA or KK with so many draws out there, Even JJ, doesnt make sense to check it. I think Im ahead like 9 out of 10 times here. As you can see I bet pretty small on the turn because I wanted him to make a move. Once he raises, I thought about pushing but decided Id let him bluff on the river because if I push he would have to fold the hands i think he has. So river comes I snap call his push.
    And yes he had AKos.
    I can see why some of you dont like to take risks like this, but this time I couldnt resist and I went with my gut, and it was right from the very beginning.
  • UnknownUnknown
    i can follow this understanding well yet ill make the most begginerist of mistakes at the most obvious of times....

    anyways therefore one must balance their ranges and vary their bet sizes to avoid such polarization against the craftiest of players

    right? cause i just learned what balancing is a short time ago ( i think i learned it).
  • UnknownUnknown
    this was similar

    PokerStars Game #49079891157: Tournament #328010435, $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (75/150) - 2010/09/03 11:35:34 PT [2010/09/03 14:35:34 ET]
    Table '328010435 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: psyko76 (2373 in chips)
    Seat 2: Dora Maar (3985 in chips)
    Seat 3: xWEBSTERx (2880 in chips)
    Seat 4: forboon (3791 in chips)
    Seat 5: Sloppyjolopy (7900 in chips)
    Seat 6: 3pErCeNTR (1818 in chips)
    Seat 7: ktraderk (1715 in chips)
    Seat 8: StakSnatcha (7743 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
    Seat 9: URmyRailbird (6298 in chips)
    psyko76: posts the ante 20
    Dora Maar: posts the ante 20
    xWEBSTERx: posts the ante 20
    forboon: posts the ante 20
    Sloppyjolopy: posts the ante 20
    3pErCeNTR: posts the ante 20
    ktraderk: posts the ante 20
    URmyRailbird: posts the ante 20
    URmyRailbird: posts small blind 75
    psyko76: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to forboon [As Ks]
    Dora Maar: folds
    xWEBSTERx: raises 300 to 450
    forboon: calls 450
    Sloppyjolopy: folds
    3pErCeNTR: folds
    ktraderk: folds
    URmyRailbird: folds
    psyko76: folds
    *** FLOP *** [4d 9h Js]
    xWEBSTERx: checks
    forboon: checks
    *** TURN *** [4d 9h Js] [Tc]
    xWEBSTERx: checks
    forboon: checks
    *** RIVER *** [4d 9h Js Tc] [Th]
    xWEBSTERx: checks
    forboon: checks
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
  • reibsreibs
    *inserts foot in mouth*
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