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shove or min raise

UnknownUnknown
in MTT Strategy
Vekked commented on a hand of mine before where i made a 3.5 bb bet and said it was way to big because we want some action. many show charts will say shove this at 13 bb which im at but does that mean snap shove or do we look to get hu or re raised here by min raising..... is there a line where don't shove even when a shove chart will tell you to. I realize you gotta make your own but i need to know if this line exists first.....boogie

PokerStars Game #48985691254: Tournament #306898293, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2010/09/01 11:35:27 PT [2010/09/01 14:35:27 ET]
Table '306898293 17' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: TTadas25 (2034 in chips)
Seat 2: forboon (1340 in chips)
Seat 3: rico aaa (9220 in chips)
Seat 4: amvpombo (5076 in chips)
Seat 5: tonkaaaa (1220 in chips)
Seat 6: carbonatx (2810 in chips)
Seat 7: Hrtwg (3720 in chips)
Seat 8: Delloor (863 in chips)
Seat 9: marynarz1980 (2050 in chips)
amvpombo: posts small blind 50
tonkaaaa: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Ah Kd]
carbonatx: folds
Hrtwg: folds
Delloor: folds
marynarz1980: folds
TTadas25: folds
forboon: ???

Comments

  • UnknownUnknown
    then one could say shoving makes you look weaker...
  • syphilaidssyphilaids
    Shove.
    1. You don't mind folds here as you're generally 55-45 dogg or 60-40 favourite.
    2. Looks like a steal from the cut-off so their calling ranges will be much higher.

    EDIT: I'll personally only min-raise this spot with QQ-AA, and after I've done it a few times I'll do it as a bluff once in a while. If the blinds are weak, I'll do it with a wide range of hands, but I'm really looking for a fold.
  • VekkedVekked
    Shoving is fine and optimal at higher stakes where raising any other size is too transparent. Here a min-raise is completely fine, you just have to be confident with how to play it post flop, since you're going to have to put chips in with A-high a lot since most c-bets will be committing with the current stack to pot ratio.

    If you min-raise you allow them to make mistakes by a) jamming worse hands, b) calling pre with worse hands when it's not profitable, and c) playing poorly post flop with a dominated range of hands. If you jam you're going to allow them to make mistakes by calling with worse unpaired hands and folding some pairs. It mostly depends whether you think at this particular level the mistakes they make vs. you min-raise will yield a higher EV than vs. your shove. Jamming is lower variance/unexploitable, but I think vs. avg $4 opponents a min-raise will be optimal if your post-flop skills with this hand/stack are on point.
  • UnknownUnknown
    syphilaids wrote: »
    Shove.
    1. You don't mind folds here as you're generally 55-45 dogg or 60-40 favourite.
    2. Looks like a steal from the cut-off so their calling ranges will be much higher.

    EDIT: I'll personally only min-raise this spot with QQ-AA, and after I've done it a few times I'll do it as a bluff once in a while. If the blinds are weak, I'll do it with a wide range of hands, but I'm really looking for a fold.


    you edit is what really answer this for me thx
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    Shoving is fine and optimal at higher stakes where raising any other size is too transparent.

    ........ but I think vs. avg $4 opponents a min-raise will be optimal if your post-flop skills with this hand/stack are on point.


    k you answered this completely for me....

    and about the post flop skills ill just assume mine are on point...

    im gonna have to spend some time with this one, but ive wondered this for a long time so it will be fun...
  • UnknownUnknown
    Vekked wrote: »
    Shoving is fine and optimal at higher stakes where raising any other size is too transparent. Here a min-raise is completely fine


    like this.....


    PokerStars Game #49245766774: Tournament #308638067, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2010/09/06 18:42:38 PT [2010/09/06 21:42:38 ET]
    Table '308638067 8' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: pjfoster13 (3677 in chips)
    Seat 2: maynard19 (9823 in chips)
    Seat 3: forboon (3750 in chips)
    Seat 5: Budalonch (10680 in chips)
    Seat 6: SundropMan (9752 in chips)
    Seat 7: csalo01 (17035 in chips)
    Seat 8: toho151 (5932 in chips)
    Seat 9: jaga711 (12915 in chips)
    pjfoster13: posts the ante 50
    maynard19: posts the ante 50
    forboon: posts the ante 50
    Budalonch: posts the ante 50
    SundropMan: posts the ante 50
    csalo01: posts the ante 50
    toho151: posts the ante 50
    jaga711: posts the ante 50
    SundropMan: posts small blind 200
    csalo01: posts big blind 400
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to forboon [Ks Kh]
    toho151: folds
    jaga711: folds
    pjfoster13: folds
    maynard19: folds
    forboon: raises 400 to 800
    Budalonch: folds
    SundropMan: folds
    csalo01: calls 400
    *** FLOP *** [Js 4s Ad]
    csalo01: checks
    forboon: checks
    *** TURN *** [Js 4s Ad] [Ts]
    csalo01: bets 1100
    forboon: calls 1100
    *** RIVER *** [Js 4s Ad Ts] [Tc]
    csalo01: bets 15085 and is all-in
    forboon: calls 1800 and is all-in
    Uncalled bet (13285) returned to csalo01
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    csalo01: shows [9c 2c] (a pair of Tens)
    forboon: shows [Ks Kh] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
    forboon collected 8000 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 8000 | Rake 0
    Board [Js 4s Ad Ts Tc]
    Seat 1: pjfoster13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: maynard19 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: forboon showed [Ks Kh] and won (8000) with two pair, Kings and Tens
    Seat 5: Budalonch (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: SundropMan (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 7: csalo01 (big blind) showed [9c 2c] and lost with a pair of Tens
    Seat 8: toho151 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: jaga711 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
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