Options
for those from higher levels
In higher level buy in mtts or one with better players I wouldn't expect a guy to call a shove here so much i'd think, so i just call. but because his deep stack and loose play i'd think i could shove all the time here....truth to this?.....
Full Tilt Poker Game #22447166053: $1 + $0.10 Tournament (173132590), Table 34 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:42:07 ET - 2010/07/19
Seat 1: forboon (9,601)
Seat 2: KK1407 (15,725)
Seat 3: Jack Hearts1 (6,922)
Seat 4: chip-marlow (19,237)
Seat 5: petergace (52,621)
Seat 6: DrunkenCacadoo (28,907)
Seat 8: iCooler (11,258)
Seat 9: oneeka (8,434)
forboon antes 75
KK1407 antes 75
Jack Hearts1 antes 75
chip-marlow antes 75
petergace antes 75
DrunkenCacadoo antes 75
iCooler antes 75
oneeka antes 75
chip-marlow posts the small blind of 300
petergace posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Qs As]
DrunkenCacadoo folds
iCooler folds
oneeka folds
forboon raises to 2,100
KK1407 has 15 seconds left to act
KK1407 folds
Jack Hearts1 folds
chip-marlow folds
petergace calls 1,500
*** FLOP *** [3d 4d Qh]
petergace bets 2,400
forboon is all in ???
Full Tilt Poker Game #22447166053: $1 + $0.10 Tournament (173132590), Table 34 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:42:07 ET - 2010/07/19
Seat 1: forboon (9,601)
Seat 2: KK1407 (15,725)
Seat 3: Jack Hearts1 (6,922)
Seat 4: chip-marlow (19,237)
Seat 5: petergace (52,621)
Seat 6: DrunkenCacadoo (28,907)
Seat 8: iCooler (11,258)
Seat 9: oneeka (8,434)
forboon antes 75
KK1407 antes 75
Jack Hearts1 antes 75
chip-marlow antes 75
petergace antes 75
DrunkenCacadoo antes 75
iCooler antes 75
oneeka antes 75
chip-marlow posts the small blind of 300
petergace posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Qs As]
DrunkenCacadoo folds
iCooler folds
oneeka folds
forboon raises to 2,100
KK1407 has 15 seconds left to act
KK1407 folds
Jack Hearts1 folds
chip-marlow folds
petergace calls 1,500
*** FLOP *** [3d 4d Qh]
petergace bets 2,400
forboon is all in ???
Comments
3.1 times the bb cannot possibly be too big. alot of times i make small ball bets but here im gonna go and go pretty much every flop.
edit: im not saying i know what go and go means.
The only time 3.1 BB is ever reasonable is if everyone's 200BB deep. Your opening raise should nevvver be over like 15% of your stack, let alone 20%. I'm going to eat sushi but I'll explain further when I get back if someone else doesn't. But trust me, anything over 2.5BB is way too big.
will be much appreciated.
I'll bite, putting in more chips with your entire range leaves you open to frequent 3betting. Also, if you adjust by opening ridiculously tight everything sucks when you just win the blinds once per hour. Besides, everyone loves postflop play, also, the Game <.<
goodnight for now
Are we twins?:D I did this exact raise in my last game but it was heads up.
I can try and find it if anyone is interested.
at a table like this, raising lighter will induce 3bets many times. and if not 3bet then certainly multiple callers. I figured this preflop bet is standard tight aggressive.
Preflop is fine. Note the antes, so there is 1500 in the middle when we open, and the big stack is the BB. Perfect storm, he calls, we hit, ship it!
And no I don't want to know how it ended!
This stuff is def important considerations, raising smaller so you can get away from hands easier when you're 3-bet or reshove on, and not making it so barely anyone ever calls with weaker hands when you have stronger ones on average.
But the main consideration is the stack to pot ratio. With this raise size there's 5100 in the pot. If you c-bet 2600 and get called, the pot's 10300 on the turn and you have 4900 behind, or less than 1 pot-sized bet. If you bet 2600 and get shoved on, you're getting over 3:1 on your money and basically have to get it in anyways as long as you have 2 overs or he can possibly have a draw but you'll be way behind. We're going to be put into tons of awkward flop/turn spots like this with little room to maneuver. I think that raising AQs here with the plan to get it in on any flop just makes little sense, why not just shove pre? At least you know that will be profitable.
If you instead made it 1500, the pot's 3900 on the flop, you bet 2000 and get called, the pot is 7900 on the turn with 6100 behind. This is a way better situation in that we have decent fold equity, so even if we miss the flop but turn a gut shot or flush draw, we can still jam and expect to show a profit by getting them to fold some mid-low pairs. We always want to have at least 3/4 of the pot to jam into the pot on any given street imo. Also, if we get jammed on a K96hhh flop we can easily get away since we're only getting around 2.2:1 and need 30% equity to profitably call.
We always want to leave ourselves options on every street. Committing ourselves for the future streets when the cards/our equity isn't known is usually pretty bad unless you have a good read on someone that gives you reason to do so (they call all 3-bets under all in, so instead of jamming someone pre, you 3-bet AK small out of position and shove any flop). Raising smaller allows us to bet/call flop, bet/fold flop, shove turn as a bluff, check/call turn, or check/fold turn. If we raise this bigger size, almost all of our flop bets will be bet/call, and our turn bluff shoves will work far less frequently since we're shoving for under 1/2 pot.
There's not a single table in the world that you can't profitably raise light in the right spots/with the right hands, and since we should be raising light sometimes, we should be raising smaller to make it more profitable.
As played I put the rest of my chip in on the flop. The flat could be Ax of diamonds or mid pocket pair.
You can easily add 15% to your stack here.
What range do you think he's flatting here?
you miss read the thread a little....the answer is i have him beat and the question is how can i get him to double me up. here in this tourney you shove, question is with better players, will you just call and hope for more money on the turn.
everyone here is saying shove the flop......i realize we feel we are good here everytime, and decent player in the bb is folding to a shove with anything less than tptk.
how often do you open raise for less than 2.5 bb? if you call a shove you are a dog every single time. not saying i lay down but still, i think it deserves consideration. a tight player who sees me as tight 3 bet shoves ak, jj+.....why do you call that?
There's also not a single table in the world that you can't raise all in 72o in the right spots/with the right hands. anyways i think ive read about eight books or so on poker and haven't read a single mention about this. maybe its in harrington's second book? ive not read anything about this, the only thing thats close is DN's small ball, but that a different style. not saying your wrong just discussing. i much appreciate the advice from better players.
I don't raise for less than 2.5 at this blind level...At the 1$ buy in, I am not always a dog with AQ...and realistically, we need a double up. Put us in a 10 buck + game...and I will fold it to the shove.
I might be able to take a stab at this one...
I think if your able to keep your opens to around 2.25-2.5 bbs, you can open more hands in good spots, which reduces his image of you being a nit, therefore making a call with AQ in this spot gets a bit more profitable. Sometimes if I find a tighter player to my left, I will pound on him from the sb. I will do it with 2.25-2.5bb raises and I find they are ready to explode by about the 3rd time. They will shove back at you with much less than AQ if they are watching...and thinking of course.
ok when i calculate big blinds i always put the ante in, this is important i think. yes villain can show many other hands......i may have to try this and see what i get 3bet with.
but my thought is i will create a 3 or 4 way pot.
No he's not. Any decent player who has any queen is calling... that said, NO decent player takes this line, so you don't have to worry about a situation that just doesn't happen.
I'm not really sure what you mean b/c your first line makes no sense, lol.
If you're talking about opening light to steal, basically at pretty much every given time that you're going to be opening, your range should consist of X% of value hands and X% of steals. The only time your range should consist of 100% value and no steals is if someone is jamming on you like 100% of the time. If they're not, you should be raise/folding some % of the time, even if it's a very small %. This is because it will increase your profit because a) you're going to win more pots without premium hands sometimes and chipping up more often when blinds are eating you away, and b) when you get a good hand, people will play back at you a bit more often so you're gonna get more action when you have it.
This stuff might not be discussed in books, but you really can't play all by the book. They have some good info obviously, but a lot of it is geared towards big live tournaments where you can sit and nit it up for ages, but online you have adjust and make more moves to get through the big fields/bad structures.
Lol, didn't even read this before making my post. Good post.
Why do you put the ante in when you calculate BB...?
Don't be afraid of multi-way pots when your hand has the best equity. With AQs if you get 2-3 callers, you just have to play fit or fold post flop, but you have to remember that your hand is almost certainly the best every single time this happens (since they often re-raise better hands) so in the long run you're going to be printing money by showing up with the best hand with shallow stacks because you'll be able to play it perfectly...
Well, I've been sitting on this for about 24 hrs. now, and in the interest of stimulating poker related conversation, and maybe learning something, I have a few questions and points!
In this particular example, with an M of 6.4, and ~15BB, the writing is on the wall. AQs is a big hand for us here, and opening light allows many things, as pointed out earlier:
A) it will allow us to get away from the hand easier when we miss, or feel beat after the flop. This is good!
C) it may lead to a multiway pot with more than one caller, again increasing equity as above. This, however, may be a double edge sword. In the long run, we gave no doubt this is good, but there is no long run here! There is no recovery time to balance the added variance this brings. We are close to being eliminated, so the chips we risk are of greater value than those we may win! At this point in our tournament, would you choose 55% equity heads-up, or 35% equity 4-handed? Just a thought for further discussion!
D) it denies us any usefull info on BB's hand. Opening for 2.25bbs makes the BB call profitable with any 2 cards.
Are we opening light our entire range here, including JJ-AA? If so, we are throwing away equity! If not, we are advertising the fact that we may like to get away from our hand cheaply! A huge tell!
Just some thoughts for additional discussion! I am open to all ideas, and opening light here may have some advantages!
uh....im pretty sure its pronounced 'grammer'.
c) "There is no recovery time to balance the added variance this brings. We are close to being eliminated" This isn't a great way to think of things, there's always a long run, variance is an illusion. Even though it may seem higher variance, it's not really. It's like how it seems like shoving weak hands in the small blind when you're short and it's folded to you seems high variance since you're risking 10-15BB to win 1.5-3BB, but in reality you're getting called so little, and when you get called you still win 1/3 of the time, so when you do the math, the times you bust out are so small that it's not really that high variance...
d) Opening to 2.25BB DOES NOT make it profitable to call with any 2 cards, but this shows that a lot of people think it does, and that's why it's good. They will call with any 2 cards, and we'll put them in a bunch of terrible spots on the flop. Say we open AQs, and they call us with 94 suited. Flop comes T92 rainbow with 1 spade. We bet, they call. Turn comes the J of spades giving us an open ender and a flush. We bet, they... have to fold the best hand. Even if it comes 952 and they call us on the flop, then the turn comes a K and we bet a gain, then the river comes a J and we shove... they can't call us (if they do it's not a profitably call). There's all sorts of ways to out play and exploit people calling with a wide range of hands... most of it involves betting.
"Are we opening light our entire range here, including JJ-AA? If so, we are throwing away equity! If not, we are advertising the fact that we may like to get away from our hand cheaply! A huge tell!"
Yes we should opene the same size with our entire range always, because exactly as you say, it's a huge tell if we vary our raise sizes based on hand strength. I don't see why we are throwing away equity with AA-JJ if we raise small, though.
i think i have a better hold on this. i learned from harrington/sklansky recently to play marginal hands weakly to induce bets from weaker hands-where as in too many spots I was making bets that only better hands would call. Here we are inviting worse hands pre-flop trapping wider ranges from possibly worse players...
try teaching this to someone that just learned pot odds...lol
"but I am getting 5:1 and it's only 150 to call" This doesn't make your 94 suited good...ever.
I do like to balance some min raises in there for reaction and a "wtf" factor..
Amen to the pot odds thing, I think we all went through that phase though. And yea, throwing in other sizes can definitely be useful in the right spots, but I wouldn't recommend people mix it up too much until they really know the right spots for it, otherwise they become too easy to read.
Yea sure, if you have showdown value but you can't get a ton of value from other hands given the board texture, just bluff catch with it. Say you have A2 on A73 rainbow. Probably a lot better to check behind and call bets than to bet it yourself. Also when we raise smaller, hands like KJ/KT that might be considered trap hands gain more value, since instead of them only calling our raise with KT+, they might calls like K7s or K9o, therefore allowing us to extract a lot more value with a hand that might otherwise by marginal. In short, it allows us to play a wider range of hands profitably, not just premiums.