Big pairs in the button or blinds

peteskipeteski
in Brags, Beats & Variance
In low limit hold'em, what do you think is best to do with big pairs (AA, KK, QQ) before the flop when you're on the button or one of the blinds and a raise likely won't knock anyone out? I can see the benefit in just calling here as no one will put you on a big pair, but wouldn't you rather build a bigger pot? Doesn't it make sense to make the pot bigger as long as you are the favourite before the flop, even if you probably won't win (meaning have less than a 50% chance of winning)? Or does building a bigger pot work too much against you by making it more attractive for people to call after the flop?

Comments

  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Raise it preflop. On the flop you MAY need to forgo the bet if it gets checked to you because the rest of the players will have the odds to call and then by betting you've given them drawing odds to beat you on the turn and river... Whereas not betting the flop, you may be able to punish the draws with bad odds or a check raise on the bigger bet street.

    BUT

    If the pots already so big on the flop that you can't shutout any draws, then bet the whole way and rub that rabbits foot.

    This is a concept from Millers SSH book..
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    Just being a beginner to this game, I often will limp in with a big pair if I'm in early position, see how many others are in the pot. Sometimes though, I will limp in when on the button too, and this has cost me. :eek:

    I'll be sitting with KK on the button, everyone is limping in, and I limp in as well, for fear of not building the pot. Then the flop comes up like 778 and I can tell by the action in front of me someone pulled of the boat. I often feel like I have no choice but to fold, but there's that nagging little voice in my head saying 'what? you nuts? you have cowboys'.

    If I raised preflop, I'm sure I would have seen some guys fold to it, and I would kick myself for not doing it when I had the chance. Live and learn.
  • yubyub1978yubyub1978
    I say never slowplay your kings or aces a small pot is better than letting someone limp in and catch a draw that you cant put anybody on but your kings are still an overpair,so you get stuck calling all the way.

    You dont want to play big pairs against a more than two callers(at least i dont) Even the all mighty AA wont stand up very often against 3-4 callers.People limp in with big pairs in hopes of re raiseing on later streets only to find out that some idiot made two pair with 85 offsuit and wont fold!!!

    We then complain about the idiot calling with 85o and taking down our aces(bad beat stories anyone).Fast playing your aces or kings thin out the field leaving your big pair in a much better position.

    Of course, you will still get called with crap every now and then,but now you can complain about the idiot calling a raise with utter garbage which i know make everyone sleep better at night.
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    Raise. You have the best hand, build the pot. You may still drive out a couple people, and no one is going to give you credit for that big a hand regardless, and even if they do they'll still call you down with any reasonable piece of the flop "just in case".
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Just being a beginner to this game, I often will limp in with a big pair if I'm in early position, see how many others are in the pot.

    Leak. You want to play your big pockets against 2-3 players ideally. Top pair will likely be good in that situation. By limping, you allow players with better position than you to limp and hit some crazy hands on the flop. Raise, you make them either fold (correct decision) or call (incorrect decision which profits you directly).
    I'll be sitting with KK on the button, everyone is limping in, and I limp in as well, for fear of not building the pot.

    Poker is a game of pushing profitable edges over time. If you are going to let people off the hook when you have edges, you won't be a winning player.
  • peteskipeteski
    I agree with most people's assessment here. I always raise in this situation, but I was reading T. J. Cloutier's book and he suggested a pretty good argument, that he cited from Mike Caro, for just calling here.

    Just to clear up any confusion, there is no disagreement about raising from early or middle position. From here you can narrow the field to a more profitable situation. The question comes when you figure that a raise will not drive anyone out, but simply build a bigger pot. Is it worth it to build a bigger pot and bet for value here when the side effect of building a bigger pot is that you will get more calls on subsequent rounds because there is a bigger pot? And, of course, there is the added bonus that if you think anyone is paying attention, they won't put you on a big hand.

    In the past I have always raised in this situation, but I can see how it would make sense to just call. In a sense, I think the question becomes would you rather have a very good chance of winning a medium sized pot or a decent chance of winning a very large pot.
  • NurseHolidayNurseHoliday
    Therefore you should bet the big pairs and build the pots. You may not win as often when 4 or 5 callers are involved (you will still win your share and then some) but when you do win you will win bigger pots. Bet bet bet. Not to drive people out, oh no. Rather you are betting to get their money in the middle when you have the best of it

    Now, there are occasions where u will be drawing near dead, even when you are ahead (does that make sense?) because the combinations of cards held by the numerous callers makes it so. Unfortunately, you won't know when these situations exist, so you may as well be consistent and bet the big pairs whenever you have them.

    My 2 cents...
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    In low limit hold'em, what do you think is best to do with big pairs (AA, KK, QQ) before the flop when you're on the button or one of the blinds and a raise likely won't knock anyone out?

    I would raise, and would not really care whether or not I knocked people out. The key to winning low limit poker is getting your opponents to put money into the pot when they have worse hands than yours.

    Disguising my hand does not concern me in low-limit.
    Doesn't it make sense to make the pot bigger as long as you are the favourite before the flop, even if you probably won't win (meaning have less than a 50% chance of winning)?

    Yes it does. In a multi-way pot, you're being offered much more than 1 to 1 on your opponents' calls when you raise. You don't need anything even close to a 50% chance of winning to make raising for value correct.
    Or does building a bigger pot work too much against you by making it more attractive for people to call after the flop?

    I agree with the suggestion that a big pot may induce your opponents into to making worse calls than usual during the post-flop play. I disagree with the suggestion that this is somehow a bad thing for you.

    ScottyZ
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    I don't want to make this a long post. Here's the jist of it: Always build the pot when you have a strong hand. The worst you'll be is a 40% favourite (AA against several callers) and you are getting anywhere from 4-1 to 7-1 return for slightly less than 1-1 odds, worst case. Long term this is hugely profitable.

    Play it smartly after the flop and you'll know when you are beaten and can avoid throwing away extra money.
Sign In or Register to comment.
HomeDiscussionsToggle Dark Mode