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Too racey or obvious shove?
Full Tilt Poker Game #21968844989: $2 + $0.20 Rebuy (1r+1a) (169407386), Table 3 - 1000/2000 Ante 250 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:03:23 ET - 2010/06/29
Seat 1: absintheminded1 (49,923)
Seat 2: forboon (21,346)
Seat 3: PADAK (51,824)
Seat 5: etkin (54,499)
Seat 6: AlFeez (35,860)
Seat 7: EXP30 (59,341)
Seat 8: Wezlee (23,021)
Seat 9: rojumilo (17,474)
absintheminded1 antes 250
forboon antes 250
PADAK antes 250
etkin antes 250
AlFeez antes 250
EXP30 antes 250
Wezlee antes 250
rojumilo antes 250
rojumilo posts the small blind of 1,000
absintheminded1 posts the big blind of 2,000
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Qd Kd]
Wezlee: nice pull out tho
EXP30: u got donkefied
forboon???
Shove or fold?
Seat 1: absintheminded1 (49,923)
Seat 2: forboon (21,346)
Seat 3: PADAK (51,824)
Seat 5: etkin (54,499)
Seat 6: AlFeez (35,860)
Seat 7: EXP30 (59,341)
Seat 8: Wezlee (23,021)
Seat 9: rojumilo (17,474)
absintheminded1 antes 250
forboon antes 250
PADAK antes 250
etkin antes 250
AlFeez antes 250
EXP30 antes 250
Wezlee antes 250
rojumilo antes 250
rojumilo posts the small blind of 1,000
absintheminded1 posts the big blind of 2,000
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Qd Kd]
Wezlee: nice pull out tho
EXP30: u got donkefied
forboon???
Shove or fold?
Comments
This.
From an in game perspective, with like 10 bb suitedness becomes completely irrelevant. You're looking to get it in with a bit of FE, and be live if you get looked up. Folding A10 fwiw.
This. I dont know how you guys fold KQo and shove KQs. Extra 2% is nice, but like wetts said with 10bbs its irrelevant. Remember, with KQo you can have TWO flush draws!
Wetts, whats your logic on folding AT? At what point to you shove a middling A?
hes just trying to sound cool....
you play kqo but fold ato?
I don't read it at all as from a calling perspective. I think Wetts is getting at there are too many dominating aces with A10 to shove from ep? AJ+ calls us, and that gives us a couple extra hands we actually have a chance against with KQ. (as opposed to A10)
but..I could be way out to lunch here..been a long day..
not so sure.....
it seems to me kqo is better but certainly not by much. interesting though that it does match up better vs the range....i think..
A10 is very borderline either way but I don't think KQ is, I probably fold some and shove some but shove A10s more cause it's prettier ^^' (and does flip slightly better against pairs and such)
22+, ATo+, A7s+, KJo+, K9s+, QJo, Q9s+, J9s+ T9s.
I would much rather have the same hand SUITED instead of unsuited, e.g., KQs >> KQo. While a suited hand may not seem to have significantly more equity against a RANDOM hand than its unsuited counterpart, what matters more is its equity against the range of hands with which somebody will call the all-in. KQs does quite well compared to KQo against the types of hands that make up a significant percentage of calling hands, such as big aces and pairs.
I can respect that but we need to remember that this is not an unexploitable range so with the wrong image this can become -EV
i realize there's a set answer for this as far as say sngwizard will show. but the question kinda suggests would you rather shove kqo from early position, or pay one blind round and shove late with likely ace rag or pp.
I doubt it. The point being made here is that we're F*cked without a double up. In reality, we need to quadruple up to not be in the danger zone. We need to win blinds/all in flips, so if we ship the top 20% of hands we're in pretty good shape. Villians' usually only call with ~10-15% (depending on stacks, KJs+, AT+, 77+). Obviously some are more willing to get it in then others, and the times we get folds from hands that dominate us > the hands that call us that have us dominated. Even with a loose image, if we ship with T9s, could you call with TJ? pretty tough.
Overall this play is +EV imo.
Actually I'm pretty sure it is an unexploitable range...
Shove both, both will show a profit... why choose?
As long as it's unexploitable I say go for it obv ^^' Just wasn't sure it was since my shove chart doesn't cover some of the hands.
The second point you make is awesome either way and I think it's something a lot of players mess up by passing up a marginal +EV spot since they think they can get a better one later and thus they'll be playing with a chip deficit
Yea it's pretty close at least, any chart/calculator/etc is going to be slightly different for various reasons, since some of the hands are barely +EV and no calc is perfect.
no no, the choice is in the first shove or fold....
i would like to know if everyone agrees with this.....
I was just referring to his option of shoving this utg or something else in late position. Might as well shove now AND if we get a good spot to shove in late position.
Not sure what it means really. Our stack is perfectly fine to play with right now, although we don't have many options.
I'm not talking about getting 4 callers with our all-in, I mean we need Quadruple our stack (M=16) to play post-flop poker or have any chance of cashing.
I'm saying try to get out of this red zone asap. I'd rather ship a large amount of hands to steal/double up or get bust. I won't sit around with an M=4 and wait for AK while losing chips every round/hand.
I agree with not waiting around and looking for spots to double up, but even though we're in harrington's 'red zone' we shouldn't lose patience. Still look for profitable spots, you can certainly grind a stack with an M of 4-6 from start to finish (except for heads up) in an MTT if necessary.
Being suited adds about 4%. And as stated above this is huge.