Your line here with JJ?

Playing against a very loose opponenet who doesn't bother reading stacksizes that much (basically a pretty typical loose fish). are we ready to stack of 80 BB's in this hand? If we call we're gonna be left with ~1 pot bet on the turn

Full Tilt Poker Game #21938237322: $10,000 Guarantee (1r+1a) (169182925), Table 31 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:18:33 ET - 2010/06/28
Seat 1: llRichardll (16,745)
Seat 2: 4everatoffee (16,913)
Seat 3: skoty1000 (5,070)
Seat 4: asamokh (7,427)
Seat 5: eyali9090 (18,647)
Seat 6: misterjinglex (12,150)
Seat 7: TigerRam723 (5,880)
Seat 8: adoptedp (15,378)
Seat 9: 144i (1,000)
llRichardll posts the small blind of 100
4everatoffee posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to llRichardll [:js :jd]
skoty1000 folds
asamokh folds
eyali9090 folds
misterjinglex folds
TigerRam723 folds
adoptedp raises to 400
144i folds
llRichardll raises to 1,400
4everatoffee folds
adoptedp calls 1,000
*** FLOP *** [:6h :5h :2h]
llRichardll bets 1,600
adoptedp raises to 3,200
llRichardll ???

Comments

  • Push. Rebuy. Carry on.

    I think your JJ is good here against the Ace flush draw. You ain't folding this, not in a $1 rebuy.
  • STR82ACE wrote: »
    Push. Rebuy. Carry on.

    I think your JJ is good here against the Ace flush draw. You ain't folding this, not in a $1 rebuy.

    it's quite a bit past the rebuy period in a 10 dollar rebuy thou..
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    it's quite a bit past the rebuy period in a 10 dollar rebuy thou..

    Rebuy is over? at 100/200? Misread the buyin, but thought rebuys were allowed up to 200/400, my bad.

    Still, I don't think you're giving this up without a fight. Unless you are gut wrenching sure he hit his set already, I don't think you can fold here. JJ is a trouble hand from the start, but the best I can put villain on is a draw. Get it in good and pray it holds up.
  • Ah, I misread a bit too, this has to be the first or second post rebuy level. And yeah, in the end I decided to fight for the pot. Got what in my mind was the second best turncard I could possibly hit and shipped it. Unfortunately for me i was dead since he flopped it ^^'

    was Just wondering if anyone would play this differently or think it's spewy to stack off (a decent chunk of a loose players minraising range consists of suited cards after all)

    Full Tilt Poker Game #21938237322: $10,000 Guarantee (1r+1a) (169182925), Table 31 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:18:33 ET - 2010/06/28
    Seat 1: llRichardll (16,745)
    Seat 2: 4everatoffee (16,913)
    Seat 3: skoty1000 (5,070)
    Seat 4: asamokh (7,427)
    Seat 5: eyali9090 (18,647)
    Seat 6: misterjinglex (12,150)
    Seat 7: TigerRam723 (5,880)
    Seat 8: adoptedp (15,378)
    Seat 9: 144i (1,000)
    llRichardll posts the small blind of 100
    4everatoffee posts the big blind of 200
    The button is in seat #9
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to llRichardll [:js :jd]
    skoty1000 folds
    asamokh folds
    eyali9090 folds
    misterjinglex folds
    TigerRam723 folds
    adoptedp raises to 400
    144i folds
    llRichardll raises to 1,400
    4everatoffee folds
    adoptedp calls 1,000
    *** FLOP *** [:6h :5h :2h]
    llRichardll bets 1,600
    adoptedp raises to 3,200
    llRichardll calls 1,600
    *** TURN *** [:6h :5h :2h] [:ts]
    llRichardll bets 10,800
    adoptedp calls 10,778, and is all in
    llRichardll shows [:js :jd]
    adoptedp shows [:7h :9h]
    Uncalled bet of 22 returned to llRichardll
    *** RIVER *** [:6h :5h :2h :ts] [:3h]
    llRichardll shows a pair of Jacks
    adoptedp shows a flush, Nine high
    adoptedp wins the pot (30,956) with a flush, Nine high
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 30,956 | Rake 0
    Board: [6h 5h 2h Ts 3h]
    Seat 1: llRichardll (small blind) showed [Js Jd] and lost with a pair of Jacks
    Seat 2: 4everatoffee (big blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 3: skoty1000 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 4: asamokh didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 5: eyali9090 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 6: misterjinglex didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 7: TigerRam723 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 8: adoptedp showed [7h 9h] and won (30,956) with a flush, Nine high
    Seat 9: 144i (button) didn't bet (folded)

    Edit: I don't know why I shove this turn and take the valueline with QQ in the other thread. There's probably a more profitable betsizing to choose here to, I'll try to keep it in mind til next time
  • Thats solid defence with the 7 and the 9 OOP to a 3x 3bet.

    Villain is very good, not surprised that you lost here.
  • Wetts1012 wrote: »
    Thats solid defence with the 7 and the 9 OOP to a 3x 3bet.

    Villain is very good, not surprised that you lost here.

    Wasn't sure if you were serious and recognised him or not so I looked him up, 41 tournaments played with an roi of -100%. now that takes a different kind of skill to achieve ^^'
  • Fold,!!!!!
  • I was going to say raise more pre, but at 100-200, your 3bet to his min-raise was pretty good.

    He just knew he'd hit that 1 outta ~120 flops where he gets the nuts.
  • my line is to fold.
  • I doubt I would take a different line than you did. I would never fold pre to a min raise if that is what some people have mentioned. I also would never fold that flop to a late pos minraiser who flats my 3 bet.

    It looks an awful lot like AXo with one heart. I have seen so many times people show up here with like Ah6s or even 77/88/99. All in all, I just don't think I can get away here.

    With that said, because we are OOP maybe flatting rather than 3 bet preflop is a possibility here? You are deep enough to set mine, and will have enough of a stack to bet-fold or check-raise-fold a flop like this. Thoughts?
  • no fold flop, pretty much always means your beat, unless it is a known bluffer then maybe.
  • I doubt you guys who said "fold" would actually fold to a minraise on this flop with JJ, even without a heart. I'd probably play this like you did and call the flop and re-evaluate the turn (not sure from the HH but did he check the turn to you?). The flop minraise from a fish USUALLY indicates a lot of strength however there are fish who will minraise this type of flop with FDs and even straight draws.
  • jdaa88 wrote: »
    i doubt you guys who said "fold" would actually fold to a minraise on this flop with jj, even without a heart.

    lol you don't me or how to play against fish, yes i would depending on opponent!!!


    i'd probably play this like you did and call the flop and re-evaluate the turn (not sure from the hh but did he check the turn to you?). The flop minraise from a fish usually indicates a lot of strength however there are fish who will minraise this type of flop with fds and even straight draws.


    pretty much what i said, awesome! :)
  • jdAA88 wrote: »
    I doubt you guys who said "fold" would actually fold to a minraise on this flop with JJ, even without a heart. I'd probably play this like you did and call the flop and re-evaluate the turn (not sure from the HH but did he check the turn to you?). The flop minraise from a fish USUALLY indicates a lot of strength however there are fish who will minraise this type of flop with FDs and even straight draws.

    ok im all in then
  • I was OOP for the hand so I called his minraise and got it in on a blank turn. Obviously if we always fold a hand with the strength of jacks to a flop minraise the correct % to minraise a cbet is 100
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    I was OOP for the hand so I called his minraise and got it in on a blank turn. Obviously if we always fold a hand with the strength of jacks to a flop minraise the correct % to minraise a cbet is 100

    It's def a mistake to worry about exploitability vs. someone who's never going to exploit you. I'd probably sigh/muck or call/ and check/re-evaluate the turn, but don't get it in for 75BB with an overpair when you could be drawing dead, and you're rarely getting value from anything that doesn't still have 25%+ equity on the turn. If you had like 30-40BB it might be correct, but it's too spewy here. If you had a heart, get it in all day.

    It's a tough spot, but it's because you put yourself in a tough spot with bet-sizing. Pre-flop make it like 1600-1800. You're really deep, out of position, vs. someone who's probably gonna have the tendency to flat you a bunch. Just because he min-raised doesn't mean you should make a small 3-bet as well, just treat it as if he raised 3x when you're this deep/out of position.

    On the flop, you haaave to bet more. You can just bet 1/2 pot when the flop is so coordinated and so many cards ruin your hand/the hands you get value from. Any heart, 4, 3, ace, king, queen are all bad for your hand, and at least ruin your action, so you have to get more money in while you can. At leeeast 2/3 pot, and closer to 3/4 pot on the flop is more like it.
  • I hate that shove!

    Villan is not even getting 2 to 1 on a call here! No hand that you beat is calling! Risking your tournament life hoping villan is drawing thin is bad!

    Preflop: Raising a little more is probably better, but I can live with your line if your c-bet is bigger: atleast 75% of the pot, say 2200-2400. If he min-raises here, you can call and pray for help on the turn, but you can't push on a brick!

    Textbook bust with overplayed overpaid, IMHO!
  • I hate that shove!

    Villan is not even getting 2 to 1 on a call here! No hand that you beat is calling! Risking your tournament life hoping villan is drawing thin is bad!

    Preflop: Raising a little more is probably better, but I can live with your line if your c-bet is bigger: atleast 75% of the pot, say 2200-2400. If he min-raises here, you can call and pray for help on the turn, but you can't push on a brick!

    Textbook bust with overplayed overpaid, IMHO!

    Not that it really matters but villain is getting the definition of 2:1 on a call if I make a potsized shove on the turn <.<

    I could bet a tad more on the flop but I don't think that's a big deal, I don't mind seing a 3,4 king or queen since they're probably fairly blank in this situation. I cannot under any circumstances call and "hope for help" on the turn, that's just plain wierd...

    And i really think I have to make my decision on the flop, I don't like calling and hoping he shuts down and I don't like giving a free card on the turn either since I'm paying off almost any nonheart river anyway. There's a fair amount of air in his flopraising range too and the only reason I flat the flop is because I might be slightly behind and want to improve my equity
  • If he min-raises here, you can call and pray for help on the turn, but you can't push on a brick!

    no...no you can't
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    Not that it really matters but villain is getting the definition of 2:1 on a call if I make a potsized shove on the turn <.<
    The pot is 1400+1400+200+3200+3200+10778 = 20178
    20178/10778 = ~1.87 to 1
    ... which I believe falls in the "not even 2 to 1" category!
    I could bet a tad more on the flop but I don't think that's a big deal, I don't mind seing a 3,4 king or queen since they're probably fairly blank in this situation. I cannot under any circumstances call and "hope for help" on the turn, that's just plain wierd...

    I think a 2, 5, 6 or J would help quite a bit, and leave you with much more equity if your going to push on the turn! (not saying I would recommend that)
    And i really think I have to make my decision on the flop, I don't like calling and hoping he shuts down and I don't like giving a free card on the turn either since I'm paying off almost any nonheart river anyway. There's a fair amount of air in his flopraising range too and the only reason I flat the flop is because I might be slightly behind and want to improve my equity

    Preflop, his range is wide, as he could be stealing from the cut-off. He could also have a big hand here since it looks like a steal, and it would be well disguised, and he's in position if one of the blinds defends. You have a BIG hand, but the flop is really bad for you to go risking your tournament life on.

    You c-bet the flop, he min-raises, and you flat, and then push the turn. He's shown no weakness, and your pushing a flop that's right in a stealers' range. I love stealing with 45s, 86s, etc. Your getting no equity on your push. He folds worse hands, and calls when your beat! Why push? I shut down after getting raised here. Risk/reward ratio way to low for me! YMMV
  • I agree the turn push is spew, but other then that I don't know if I could get away. I'd pretty much take the same line as you, and on the turn I'd either c/r or c/f if you put him on a flush. If he checks back the turn you can pretty much call any river bet thats not a heart. Although I doubt this line is very profitable or the "right" line, I just believe it would be mine.
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    I could bet a tad more on the flop but I don't think that's a big deal, I don't mind seing a 3,4 king or queen since they're probably fairly blank in this situation. I cannot under any circumstances call and "hope for help" on the turn, that's just plain wierd...

    And i really think I have to make my decision on the flop, I don't like calling and hoping he shuts down and I don't like giving a free card on the turn either since I'm paying off almost any nonheart river anyway. There's a fair amount of air in his flopraising range too and the only reason I flat the flop is because I might be slightly behind and want to improve my equity

    You can't bet half pot on a board this coordinated with a hand so vulnerable, you're just giving him too good of odds to draw out on you. And yes, the 3, 4, K, and Q are blanks in the sense that they don't improve much of his range, but if one of those comes, you're rarely getting anymore value from a worse hand. If you bet on one of those cards, more often than not, the villain will a) fold a worse hand, or b) continue with a better one.

    Just think of the amount of money you're making in the long run with off-suit jacks on a 3 heart low board... probably not much. Even if he gets it in with bottom pair and the nut-low flush draw, you're not in good shape.
  • Vekked wrote: »

    Just think of the amount of money you're making in the long run with off-suit jacks on a 3 heart low board... probably not much.

    ok i fold again.
  • Vekked wrote: »
    Just think of the amount of money you're making in the long run with off-suit jacks on a 3 heart low board... probably not much. Even if he gets it in with bottom pair and the nut-low flush draw, you're not in good shape.

    yup, I know I'm folding out almost everything I beat, I just don't want him to draw another card for free if I'm gonna pay him off anyway. I still can't decide if it's better to give up what's in the pot and let him freeroll me or risk what's in the pot to win the same amount. What's bugging me is that with a potbet left there's really no other bet I can make on the turn =/
Sign In or Register to comment.