Need a ruling on an incident at a home game
Player#1 makes a bet on the flop, player#2 says "I think that puts me all in" and flipped his cards. Player#1 had trip 9's, player#2 had 2 pair. Turn and river are revealed, player#1 wins hand. Player#2 then throws all his chips in the center and player#1 then scoops chips in front of him. Player#2 then gets up from the table and starts walking away but then comes back, pulls the pot back into the center of the table, counts out the chips and the blinds and says "I had more than player#1's bet on the flop, so I'm still in" and he proceeded to pull those chips out of the pot and sit down.
Opinion is that he should have been out of the tournament. Since he was host, no one could really push the argument too much. Is there any ruling showing otherwise?
Opinion is that he should have been out of the tournament. Since he was host, no one could really push the argument too much. Is there any ruling showing otherwise?
Comments
1) Player #2 didn't really call the all-in 'officially'. The phrase 'I think this puts me all-in" on it's own isn't really a call in many of the places you may play around the world
2) I'm OK with sorting out the chip stacks after the river but the chips should have been stacked neatly for a quick count.
3) I can't rule Player #2 out UNLESS there was significant doubt that he in fact covered Player #1 and noone other than player #2 had counted how many chips player # 2 had.
If player #2 was the only one who knew he covered player #1, I'd ask the question "How in the interest of fairness are we supposed to know how many chips player #2 had?"
If the hand can be re-created with pre-flop/post-flop action and player #1 knew how mamy chips he had (I'd take his word for it if no-one else knew), then re-create the hand and if player #2 did in fact have more chips, he gets a refund.
4) Player #2 gets a talking-to regardless if he is the host or not about proper etiquette and how he can (hopefully) see how his actions caused an issue at the table. I'd also inform him that the next time he pulls something like this, you won't be returning to his game.
Level? A HOST was the culprit? He should have known better. A game I wouldn't likely return to.
Otherwise, there is no way to determine exactly how many chips player 2 had and he left the table/tourney giving the impression that he had either knew he was covered or was forfieting his remaining chips.
Unless you can recreate the betting to confirm how many chips each player had, I'd take the position that, given his actions, he reasonably believed he was covered and was out. It is player 2's obligation to protect his hand/chips and get a count. IMO he is playing a huge angle here and deserves a KITN.
You as another player at the table have no clue how big the stacks of any/all your opponents are?
Personally, I always have at least an idea if not an exact count (what else am I doing while people take an hour to deal each hand?) or hollywood on an obvious blank river in a hand I'm not in.
I hate the idea (regardless of the action taken by player #2) that a player has padded their stacks with chips they aren't entitled to. I've seen it occasionally AND ALWAYS say something.
There are times when it is hard to determine chip denomination. Also, while I may know about how much they have if I can't be certain, what good am I doing by saying "I think player 2 had around 9k in chips".....as "around" or "about" aren't actual numbers.
The only way to properly determine chip counts is to recreate the hand.
IMO, this is an issue of player 2 not protecting his hand/chips and should not benefit from any ambiguities. If the next hand had been dealt, it would've been a non-issue as the action stands and player 2 would've forfieted any extra chips.
Hell, you could argue that player 2 folded on the flop by exposing his hand without being clear of his intentions. Saying "I think that puts me allin" isn't a call and then showing his cards in a tourney would have them killed in most casinos (even if heads up). And without knowing if it actually DOES put him allin, there could still be action past the flop with his hand being face up. What happens if player 1 (for some stupid reason) mucks thinking player 2 has folded as his actions are unclear?
IMO player 2 pretty much shot 2 angles. The first in how he called. It wasn't really a "call" or an "allin", so he should've clarified his action. 2nd without getting a chip count he can't prove he had more chips, especially if player 1 had chips behind to possibly put him allin. So he could pretty much get it shown down with the belief he is allin, without actually being allin. The second claiming chips which he may or may not be entitled to. If player 1 had more chips then player 2 and it was player 2's intent to go allin, player 2 is gone. If he had more chips, well he should've gotten an accurate count at the end of the hand.
I also don't like a player getting chips they may not be entitled to. But I don't like allowing a player to create an angle shot, thus giving them a free shot at chips.
The chips should allways be counted before show down to prevent this. IF player 2 pushes all of his chips in then it doesnt matter much as logn as player 1 said "call"
Either way, Player 2 is a total douche. If he did have chips left he can't count 2 streets as checking it down. total dick move.
1st re create the pot. Determine how much he had, if he was covered by the initial flop bet, tell him sorry, he's eliminated. If he wasn't covered, determine how much he had left after the flop bet, and return those chips to him. Then treat it as if the dealer prematurely dealt the turn and river and follow the dealer error procedure. Leave the burn cards on the table, pick up the turn and river and re shuffle them into the deck (leaving the mucked cards and burn cards on table). Now you are ready to play out the hand, ask the players who's first to act what his action is, and play out the rest of the hand without burning a card before turn or river.
It seems as if he would have very little chips left and would have been put all in by the river (not for sure but...), hopefully the outcome is the same and he's eliminated anyway, thus taking away his angle shooting attempt at getting to showdown without using his last few chips.
Also, never go back to that home game.
sstar
Just want to know for sure, his comment is not an official all in declaration, correct? How about once he showed his cards without having put all his chips in? And by his actions, in a casino level or world series event, would he be considered to have moved all in once he has put all his chips in the center and walked away?
[FONT=Univers (W1)]A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.[/FONT]
[FONT=Univers (W1)]If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, but the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been complied with, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Univers (W1)]this is the robert rules of poker. i am taking it that a new shuffle occured, he would not be allowed to get his chips. my suggestion would be to have some house rules posted that all players can look at and agree to. or else don't go back to his game. [/FONT]
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