Limit Hand for discussion

DrTyore

Full Tilt Poker Game #19089836863: Table Bentley - $0.50/$1 - Limit Hold'em - 21:47:46 ET - 2010/03/08
Seat 1: crouchingtiger0 ($50)
Seat 2: DrTyore ($14.75)
Seat 3: ATrask ($33.20)
Seat 4: BitterDan ($16.50)
Seat 5: jimmey932 ($7.10)
Seat 6: VIVISectVI ($23.95)
Seat 7: Little_Abner ($9.80)
Seat 8: kokokat ($25.90)
Seat 9: Boldrocket ($19.75)
BitterDan posts the small blind of $0.25
jimmey932 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [7s 8s]
VIVISectVI folds
Little_Abner folds
kokokat calls $0.50
Boldrocket folds
crouchingtiger0 raises to $1
DrTyore calls $1
ATrask folds
BitterDan calls $0.75
jimmey932 raises to $1.50
kokokat calls $1
crouchingtiger0 calls $0.50
DrTyore raises to $2
BitterDan folds
jimmey932 calls $0.50
kokokat calls $0.50
crouchingtiger0 calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [9c 8h 7d]
jimmey932 checks
kokokat bets $0.50
crouchingtiger0 calls $0.50
DrTyore raises to $1
jimmey932 calls $1
kokokat calls $0.50
crouchingtiger0 calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [9c 8h 7d] [4c]
jimmey932 checks
kokokat checks
crouchingtiger0 checks
DrTyore bets $1
jimmey932 calls $1
kokokat calls $1
crouchingtiger0 calls $1
*** RIVER *** [9c 8h 7d 4c] [4s]
jimmey932 checks
kokokat checks
crouchingtiger0 checks
DrTyore checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DrTyore shows [7s 8s] two pair, Eights and Sevens
jimmey932 mucks
kokokat shows [9s Ts] two pair, Nines and Fours
crouchingtiger0 mucks
kokokat wins the pot ($16.50) with two pair, Nines and Fours
jimmey932 adds $5
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $17 | Rake $0.50
Board: [9c 8h 7d 4c 4s]
Seat 1: crouchingtiger0 mucked [Ks Td] - a pair of Fours
Seat 2: DrTyore showed [7s 8s] and lost with two pair, Eights and Sevens
Seat 3: ATrask (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: BitterDan (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: jimmey932 (big blind) mucked [Kc Jh] - a pair of Fours
Seat 6: VIVISectVI didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Little_Abner didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: kokokat showed [9s Ts] and won ($16.50) with two pair, Nines and Fours
Seat 9: Boldrocket didn't bet (folded)

actyper

Why did you call then cap pre?

Bet the river, anything beating you would have raised your turn bet.

DrTyore

actyper wrote: »

Why did you call then cap pre?

Bet the river, anything beating you would have raised your turn bet.

Actually..

I was the one to cap it pre-flop, and despite everyone's insistence that it's because it's my favorite hand, it's actually a play from "Hold 'em for Advanced Players" by Sklansky / Malmouth. If you've a hand that plays well multi-way, may as well cap it, especially if you've good position. I figure if I hit a draw, I've swelled the pot to justify my calls.

Mark

DrTyore

actyper wrote: »

Why did you call then cap pre?

Bet the river, anything beating you would have raised your turn bet.

Oh, and I HIGHLY disagree with your saying bet the river... I have middle two pair on a paired board that went mutli-way capped preflop. You see the problem right?

Mark

moose

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [7s 8s]
VIVISectVI folds
Little_Abner folds
kokokat calls $0.50
Boldrocket folds
crouchingtiger0 raises to $1
DrTyore FOLDS

and what did pokertracker show for the other two guys?

GTA Poker

fold to the raise pre there is still lots of action behind you

Big Mike

DrTyore wrote: »

Oh, and I HIGHLY disagree with your saying bet the river... I have middle two pair on a paired board that went mutli-way capped preflop. You see the problem right?

Mark

Yeah, but you capped it, so a big pocket pair isn't guaranteed. I think I'm betting the river anyway, folding to a raise, obviously.
It's at least possible you're up against a QTo, or AcKc type hand by either of them so I'm not folding to one bet in a pot that big.

Also, imo you shouldn't cold call with 78s after only one limp and raiser, I'm pretty sure that's -ev.

Big Mike

Ok, saw the results now. The river getting checked through was obviously nice. Tough break, but you did have to dodge 15 cards going to the river.

The only discussion I see about this hand should be with your preflop play. Cold-calling sucks. 3bet or get out.

ReefAquarium

Preflop, I almost never cold call.
If someone raises, I fold or 3bet.


Even in late position...

My cold call range is tiny...
Late position I might cold call with AQs, KQs. and a few other high suited broadways.

But you wouldn't have much of a leak if you cold called just once a week.

What's your cold call range? (early middle late)

DrTyore

Good question...

I've never really labeled a range for CC'ing.... I like suited connectors obviously, as low as 56 up to TJ, and maybe KQ. The occasional suited gapper I'll call with too. Depending on the villain, I may loosen that up or tighten that up. I usually fold the danger hands like KJ, and crappier ones (KT, Q9, etc).

Mark

syphilaids

I relaly dont mind the cold call if the table has been loose and you're pretty sure it'll be a multiway pot. After a limper and a raise i'd cold call as It will be at least a 3way pot.

Cappign the flop is questionable but I don't mind it. It just looks donk, but you have a good point, your hand plays well multi way.

Other then that I think you played fine. River sucks, and 9pair is never folding to 1 bb so just save yourself the cash and pray everyone has a sole T.

I really don't know why 9T doesn't cap this flop here, he has lots of outs and only really behind a made straight or set. Given all the weakness shown by everyone except hero I cap all day here.

ReefAquarium

DrTyore wrote: »

Good question...

I've never really labeled a range for CC'ing.... I like suited connectors obviously, as low as 56 up to TJ, and maybe KQ. The occasional suited gapper I'll call with too. Depending on the villain, I may loosen that up or tighten that up. I usually fold the danger hands like KJ, and crappier ones (KT, Q9, etc).

Mark

This is *way* too loose a range to cold call...

Unless you have a huge advantage in postflop skill over your opponents you should not be cold calling much more than AQs, KQs etc...

ReefAquarium

DrTyore wrote: »

Good question...

I've never really labeled a range for CC'ing.... I like suited connectors obviously, as low as 56 up to TJ, and maybe KQ. The occasional suited gapper I'll call with too. Depending on the villain, I may loosen that up or tighten that up. I usually fold the danger hands like KJ, and crappier ones (KT, Q9, etc).

Mark

Personally, I think cold calling is evil.. don't do it.
This is *way* too loose a range to cold call...

Unless you have a huge advantage in postflop skill over your opponents you should not be cold calling much more than AQs, KQs etc... If I'm feeling wild I might cold call with AJs, QJs

GTA Poker

Making money in full ring limit is all about understanding hand values preflop. Cold calling with this hand in this position is a terrible play, period.

Unknown

GTA Poker wrote: »

Making money in full ring limit is all about understanding hand values preflop. Cold calling with this hand in this position is a terrible play, period.

is it really called cold calling when he raises? and when you say 'in this position' hes actually in the best position in the hand.

i'm fine with it, not a limit player, but with a big pot you stand to make some money on certain boards. its likely most of the others are holding high cards, so you just have to be able to laydown top pair, or 2nd pair post flop. 2 pair is a good flop but not ideal. i may have checked the turn but im a nl player so im guessing for limit. i do think though, or assume that many intermediate players over play suited connectors, just a theory.

They had a lot of outs but you got to see a large pot for fairly cheap with a good shot

ReefAquarium

darbday wrote: »

is it really called cold calling when he raises? and when you say 'in this position' hes actually in the best position in the hand.

i'm fine with it, not a limit player, but with a big pot you stand to make some money on certain boards. its likely most of the others are holding high cards, so you just have to be able to laydown top pair, or 2nd pair post flop. 2 pair is a good flop but not ideal. i may have checked the turn but im a nl player so im guessing for limit. i do think though, or assume that many intermediate players over play suited connectors, just a theory.

They had a lot of outs but you got to see a large pot for fairly cheap with a good shot

Guys,

Good and bad news...

Bad news... You are probably leaking 3+ big blinds an hour due to bad preflop play.


The good news is you can easily make a *HUGE* improvement in your play if you learn how to play preflop properly. It only takes a moment to create a good preflop chart and stick it on your monitor.

Doing this is the low hanging fruit that you should pick asap.

GTA Poker

darbday wrote: »

is it really called cold calling when he raises? and when you say 'in this position' hes actually in the best position in the hand.

i'm fine with it, not a limit player, but with a big pot you stand to make some money on certain boards. its likely most of the others are holding high cards, so you just have to be able to laydown top pair, or 2nd pair post flop. 2 pair is a good flop but not ideal. i may have checked the turn but im a nl player so im guessing for limit. i do think though, or assume that many intermediate players over play suited connectors, just a theory.

They had a lot of outs but you got to see a large pot for fairly cheap with a good shot

He cold called the open raise in MP with suited connectors and several players left to act behind him -- this is terrible play in LHE.

He got to see the flop for the most money possible -- not cheaply.

He was fortunate that several players saw the flop but there is not way that this could be known when he made the initial cold call.

This hand is just a spewing of money. The only good play is to fold preflop in this position with these cards.

redoak181

-fold pre

superhero

I think his poker odds were telling him to fold pre-flop as well.

Meistro

The time to raise with this hand before the flop is typically on the button or cut off after a lot of really bad loose passive limpers. By capping here you are tremendously lowering your implied odds by choosing to pay more; you are going to miss the flop a lot with this hand but when you do make a hand it will be much stronger. You are really just playing bad before the flop in order to make your bad plays on later street less bad. If there were 6 or 7 players in before the flop you would have more justification for an equity cap. And yes, cold calling here is very bad. Cold calling is just losing poker. Raise or fold baby, all day long.