lol..you don't seem to realize that you went from "Set mining" to "I heart my 77" by leading.
if you :h: your 77 why are you letting him see a flop in position for free with gtd. overcards? And worse still, if you insist on going to a flop with your "Super Sexy Seven Seven" ...Why aren't you maximizing the amount of chips in the pot by say..C/Ring his c-bet?
The answer is that your 77 isn't that sexy. Maybe you could argue with aces or kings for a pf call, but 77 is illogical.
I don't "heart" anything here....we have a valid hand with 6 players... This far in, I am looking to get to the top. If we hit our set, fantastic...if the flop is ugly, we can let it go and still have plenty of game to carry on...we are still middle of the pack...
When the dry flop comes, who gives a shit what our cards are? Granted, we do need something of value to make the call to start with...but, He is ONLY calling if he hits. How often does he hit?
If you want to play by the "set mining rules" no, we shouldn't be here...but poker is a game of situations is it not? I feel like this is a situation we need to take a stab at...he is giving us a pretty cheap shot at a set and likely steal. We are 6 handed..we need the blinds every bit as much as the next guy..
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all against the shove, just looking at validation for a safer "look" at the flop. I don't think flatting is a bad move. Apparently I need to learn more.
Wetts....while I know we shouldn't be results oriented...what was the flop?
I don't "heart" anything here....we have a valid hand with 6 players... This far in, I am looking to get to the top. If we hit our set, fantastic...if the flop is ugly, we can let it go and still have plenty of game to carry on...we are still middle of the pack...
When the dry flop comes, who gives a shit what our cards are? Granted, we do need something of value to make the call to start with...but, He is ONLY calling if he hits. How often does he hit?
If you want to play by the "set mining rules" no, we shouldn't be here...but poker is a game of situations is it not? I feel like this is a situation we need to take a stab at...he is giving us a pretty cheap shot at a set and likely steal. We are 6 handed..we need the blinds every bit as much as the next guy..
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all against the shove, just looking at validation for a safer "look" at the flop. I don't think flatting is a bad move. Apparently I need to learn more.
Wetts....while I know we shouldn't be results oriented...what was the flop?
Yah, let's take a flop OOP and play the guessing game against a strong loose agressive opponent with more chips than us who is obviously very hard to range up. Any more good ideas? ._.
(What do we do when the flop comes 228 and he has the 89hh? Not to mention my personal favorite, flop comes A high and he bets the QJ airball)
would players be opening with these cards at this stage of a tournament with likely their largest payday within site? Personally I like the fold over the shove.
My open range would be this wide, so I have to assume his is.
Yah, let's take a flop OOP and play the guessing game against a strong loose agressive opponent with more chips than us who is obviously very hard to range up. Any more good ideas? ._.
(What do we do when the flop comes 228 and he has the 89hh?)
The same thing we do when A:we shove and run into KK or JJ or AA...etc.. or B: flop comes 9j5, we shove and he has aa, kk, jj, etc... or C: we fold and don't see any cards for the next 30 hands and are forced into playing A9o.
We go home, we get over it.
What happens when we do get a 7 on the flop? We possibly double up and are in great position to win. Flop comes 9j5...we shove and he folds. we can shove any number of flops and he can fold...
Good ideas? Yeah, I have lots..lol..loosen the string on your panties and play some cards..If you want to be condescending, I can too.
I am not averse to being wrong, just don't call me an idiot while explaining...lol
Like I said, I obviously have much more learning to do...this could explain
my spike...downhill slope...spike...downhill slope..etc in my graph...Need to learn more about these "weak" spots.
I am not averse to being wrong, just don't call me an idiot while explaining...lol
Like I said, I obviously have much more learning to do...this could explain
my spike...downhill slope...spike...downhill slope..etc in my graph...Need to learn more about these "weak" spots.
Dont worry everyone (Even Kristy) just has a boner cause we are having an actual poker discussion.
(What do we do when the flop comes 228 and he has the 89hh? Not to mention my personal favorite, flop comes A high and he bets the QJ airball)
Now that we have edited here..
A high flop is ugly for us..we let it go, carry on. We are looking for a dry flop or a 7... What have we really lost? Still middle of the pack, still lots of game to go...
A high flop is ugly for us..we let it go, carry on. We are looking for a dry flop or a 7... What have we really lost? Still middle of the pack, still lots of game to go...
your logic must be skewed as I agree with you.
I'm not really an online player, but when you are this far in a tournament, does anyone watch the other tables when you are down to say 50 players, to get a feel for the other players you may face later on in the tournament? having a bit more info on the cards that villian was typically playing would have been very helpful in this situation. Not sure if you can open up the other tables and poker tracker, etc. will record the action at these tables for your review later on?
I'm not really an online player, but when you are this far in a tournament, does anyone watch the other tables when you are down to say 50 players, to get a feel for the other players you may face later on in the tournament? having a bit more info on the cards that villian was typically playing would have been very helpful in this situation. Not sure if you can open up the other tables and poker tracker, etc. will record the action at these tables for your review later on?
Any time I get down to 3 tables I open up all 3 and cascade with HUD running. This way you get more info. on potential final table villains.
This was stated in the OP. I show 33/26 over 40 hands. This means hes playing 1/3 of the hands, and opening 26% of his range (This is not 6max).
*doh*...hmm..not sure how I would have responded..*might* have been able to let it go..AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10 are all certainly part of the opening range..and a queen certainly isn't a card we want to see...possibly would have checked it and let it go.....but knowing myself...my thoughts (as of late) go like this when he c-bets.."he has AK. he is stealing. everyone is stealing! shove." then facepalm. I need to fix this attitude.
That being said...still doesn't change my feelings on flatting with 77 there...I think any reasonable player could let it go with that flop..we are looking for a smaller board...paint isn't pretty.
ok, good to know. 33% seems extremely high. Did you review the hands he showed over these 40 hands where he opened for a raise?
LOL not possible while playing. Reviewing the HH not gonna happen live (or at least in the 50 seconds you have to make a decision). But you get an idea of relative tendencies.
*doh*...hmm..not sure how I would have responded..*might* have been able to let it go..AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10 are all certainly part of the opening range..and a queen certainly isn't a card we want to see...possibly would have checked it and let it go.....but knowing myself...my thoughts (as of late) go like this when he c-bets.."he has AK. he is stealing. everyone is stealing! shove." then facepalm. I need to fix this attitude.
That being said...still doesn't change my feelings on flatting with 77 there...I think any reasonable player could let it go with that flop..we are looking for a smaller board...paint isn't pretty.
This is insane..you're telling us your definition of a 'dry board' is one that doesn't include A-10?
Hell I'll even grant you two of them..for his hand..that still leaves you 18 cards to dodge THREE times before you act. Jesus, smarter to set mine.
You should re-read your arguments, it sounds like you're getting entrenched in the 'flat with 77' camp, intent on defending it..when no defense is possible. It is not the best option here.
This is insane..you're telling us your definition of a 'dry board' is one that doesn't include A-10?
This is why I think anyone in the "flat" camp should reconsider and move to the "fold" camp.
1) In almost all cases where we dont hit a set we convince ourselves to give up and we are basically giving away 36K in chips. Every single flop you check is getting Cbet.
2) Flatting with the intention of folding almost always implies moving up the leaderboard is more important than making the best possible decision right now.
This is insane..you're telling us your definition of a 'dry board' is one that doesn't include A-10?
my definition of "dry" is varied...as is our hand in each situation..if it doesn't have paint I feel better here...I can let it go without being beaten up too hard most of the time..
You should re-read your arguments, it sounds like you're getting entrenched in the 'flat with 77' camp, intent on defending it..when no defense is possible. It is not the best option here.
I don't recall saying it was the BEST option...I am trying to figure out why it ISN'T an option....I recall saying it is what I would do...
This is why I think anyone in the "flat" camp should reconsider and move to the "fold" camp.
1) In almost all cases where we dont hit a set we convince ourselves to give up and we are basically giving away 36K in chips. Every single flop you check is getting Cbet.
2) Flatting with the intention of folding almost always implies moving up the leaderboard is more important than making the best possible decision right now.
Thank you Darryl, this does make more sense put this way.. while I still think I would have flatted (then...and wrongly..yes Kristy..wrongly)...I definitely see more (than I did before) merit in the shove...
Why wouldn't those hands be in his opening range? Opening 26% as stated in OP...
Well they should be unless he's adapting to the stacks. It's just a clearer way to show why this move is so effective seing all these uncallable hands in his range
Comments
I don't "heart" anything here....we have a valid hand with 6 players... This far in, I am looking to get to the top. If we hit our set, fantastic...if the flop is ugly, we can let it go and still have plenty of game to carry on...we are still middle of the pack...
When the dry flop comes, who gives a shit what our cards are? Granted, we do need something of value to make the call to start with...but, He is ONLY calling if he hits. How often does he hit?
If you want to play by the "set mining rules" no, we shouldn't be here...but poker is a game of situations is it not? I feel like this is a situation we need to take a stab at...he is giving us a pretty cheap shot at a set and likely steal. We are 6 handed..we need the blinds every bit as much as the next guy..
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all against the shove, just looking at validation for a safer "look" at the flop. I don't think flatting is a bad move. Apparently I need to learn more.
Wetts....while I know we shouldn't be results oriented...what was the flop?
Yah, let's take a flop OOP and play the guessing game against a strong loose agressive opponent with more chips than us who is obviously very hard to range up. Any more good ideas? ._.
(What do we do when the flop comes 228 and he has the 89hh? Not to mention my personal favorite, flop comes A high and he bets the QJ airball)
You aren't getting it. (the validation, I mean)
Activate "Soul Read" mode
My open range would be this wide, so I have to assume his is.
The same thing we do when A:we shove and run into KK or JJ or AA...etc.. or B: flop comes 9j5, we shove and he has aa, kk, jj, etc... or C: we fold and don't see any cards for the next 30 hands and are forced into playing A9o.
We go home, we get over it.
What happens when we do get a 7 on the flop? We possibly double up and are in great position to win. Flop comes 9j5...we shove and he folds. we can shove any number of flops and he can fold...
Good ideas? Yeah, I have lots..lol..loosen the string on your panties and play some cards..If you want to be condescending, I can too.
My calling range in his spot is AQ+, 1010+, for half my stack this deep.
This is kind of a good point. We get blown off the pot often by hands that we actually beat!
I am not averse to being wrong, just don't call me an idiot while explaining...lol
Like I said, I obviously have much more learning to do...this could explain
my spike...downhill slope...spike...downhill slope..etc in my graph...Need to learn more about these "weak" spots.
Dont worry everyone (Even Kristy) just has a boner cause we are having an actual poker discussion.
continue......
Now that we have edited here..
A high flop is ugly for us..we let it go, carry on. We are looking for a dry flop or a 7... What have we really lost? Still middle of the pack, still lots of game to go...
man, I am thick headed today.
[ ] called you an idiot
[?] thought it
your logic must be skewed as I agree with you.
I'm not really an online player, but when you are this far in a tournament, does anyone watch the other tables when you are down to say 50 players, to get a feel for the other players you may face later on in the tournament? having a bit more info on the cards that villian was typically playing would have been very helpful in this situation. Not sure if you can open up the other tables and poker tracker, etc. will record the action at these tables for your review later on?
Build it, they will come. More Dennisions needed. Which way to Waco?
Any time I get down to 3 tables I open up all 3 and cascade with HUD running. This way you get more info. on potential final table villains.
This was stated in the OP. I show 33/26 over 40 hands. This means hes playing 1/3 of the hands, and opening 26% of his range (This is not 6max).
Flop - Q66
*doh*...hmm..not sure how I would have responded..*might* have been able to let it go..AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10 are all certainly part of the opening range..and a queen certainly isn't a card we want to see...possibly would have checked it and let it go.....but knowing myself...my thoughts (as of late) go like this when he c-bets.."he has AK. he is stealing. everyone is stealing! shove." then facepalm. I need to fix this attitude.
That being said...still doesn't change my feelings on flatting with 77 there...I think any reasonable player could let it go with that flop..we are looking for a smaller board...paint isn't pretty.
ok, good to know. 33% seems extremely high. Did you review the hands he showed over these 40 hands where he opened for a raise?
LOL not possible while playing. Reviewing the HH not gonna happen live (or at least in the 50 seconds you have to make a decision). But you get an idea of relative tendencies.
with a possible string of luck and smaller tables, and some short stack, blind stealing around the money i think this stat doesn't give much info.
This is insane..you're telling us your definition of a 'dry board' is one that doesn't include A-10?
Hell I'll even grant you two of them..for his hand..that still leaves you 18 cards to dodge THREE times before you act. Jesus, smarter to set mine.
You should re-read your arguments, it sounds like you're getting entrenched in the 'flat with 77' camp, intent on defending it..when no defense is possible. It is not the best option here.
This is why I think anyone in the "flat" camp should reconsider and move to the "fold" camp.
1) In almost all cases where we dont hit a set we convince ourselves to give up and we are basically giving away 36K in chips. Every single flop you check is getting Cbet.
2) Flatting with the intention of folding almost always implies moving up the leaderboard is more important than making the best possible decision right now.
Shove > Fold > Flat imo.
If you have a significant LAG image,
Fold > Shove > Flat
my definition of "dry" is varied...as is our hand in each situation..if it doesn't have paint I feel better here...I can let it go without being beaten up too hard most of the time..
I don't recall saying it was the BEST option...I am trying to figure out why it ISN'T an option....I recall saying it is what I would do...
Thank you Darryl, this does make more sense put this way.. while I still think I would have flatted (then...and wrongly..yes Kristy..wrongly)...I definitely see more (than I did before) merit in the shove...
If someone told me all these hands were in his range my chips would be in the pot before that person had finished the sentence ^^'
Why wouldn't those hands be in his opening range? Opening 26% as stated in OP...
Well they should be unless he's adapting to the stacks. It's just a clearer way to show why this move is so effective seing all these uncallable hands in his range