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i always over play fours but here?

UnknownUnknown
in Analyze My Hand
***** Hand History for Game 8790782767 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $3 USD Buy-in Trny:49488742 Level:10 Blinds-Antes(800/1,600 -50) - Sunday, January 10, 00:15:36 EST 2010
Table $300K Gtd Sunday Qualifier Rebuy 4 Seats Gtd (1829226) Table #2 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 6: Crockeb ( 23,570 )
Seat 5: DPhilosopher ( 13,790 )
Seat 4: JoBloShow ( 84,570 )
Seat 9: dvd46 ( 54,650 )
Seat 2: hero ( 67,585 )
Seat 7: loetsch999 ( 43,165 )
Seat 1: mikesoph ( 22,990 )
Trny:49488742 Level:10
Blinds-Antes(800/1,600 -50)
mikesoph posts ante [50]
hero posts ante [50]
JoBloShow posts ante [50]
DPhilosopher posts ante [50]
Crockeb posts ante [50]
loetsch999 posts ante [50]
dvd46 posts ante [50]
** Dealing down cards **
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ 4s 4h ]
DPhilosopher folds
Crockeb folds
loetsch999 calls [1,600]
dvd46 calls [1,600]
mikesoph folds
hero calls [800]
JoBloShow checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, Kc, 5c ]
hero is all-In [65,935]
JoBloShow calls [65,935]
loetsch999 folds
dvd46 is all-In [53,000]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]
hero shows [ 4s, 4h ]three of a kind, Fours.
JoBloShow shows [ 8c, Jc ]a flush, King high.
dvd46 shows [ Ac, 9c ]a flush, Ace high.
JoBloShow wins 25,870 chips from the side pot 1 with a flush, King high.
dvd46 wins 165,750 chips from the main pot with a flush, Ace high.
Player hero finished in 21.

Comments

  • 88Fingers88Fingers
    one of those hands...

    in hindsight you could have raised from the SB to try to isolate and get rid of junk but that's why hindsight is always 20/20
  • Richard~Richard~
    Nothing you can do really but you need to v-bet between 2/3 and full pot every time. You're shoving over 9x the pot for really no reason ._.

    (Don't raise with the pp IMO, you want to lay yourself as implied odds as possible, hit the 4 and play a big multiway pot)
  • UnknownUnknown
    Richard~ wrote: »
    Nothing you can do really but you need to v-bet between 2/3 and full pot every time. You're shoving over 9x the pot for really no reason ._.

    (Don't raise with the pp IMO, you want to lay yourself as implied odds as possible, hit the 4 and play a big multiway pot)

    well the reason i shoved was cause i checked a guy to a full house and quads earlier yesterday, im likely to get called by a top pair or high A clubs, and id rather them lay down anyways. just not sure i could get away from this without losing half my stack playing it with standard betting sizes
  • Richard~Richard~
    You don't need to check to anyone but this shove is probably a leak and I wouldn't recommend it. If you pot bet and get called by a fd you get the value of the pot every time a suit card doesn't hit on the turn so you can't honestly want them to lay down..
  • UnknownUnknown
    Richard~ wrote: »
    You don't need to check to anyone but this shove is probably a leak and I wouldn't recommend it. If you pot bet and get called by a fd you get the value of the pot every time a suit card doesn't hit on the turn so you can't honestly want them to lay down..

    ya ill consider that, what im trying to do is get the high pairs all in and possible make the flush draws fold. im too afraid of them and maybe i gotta lay off that.
  • TheBowlBoyTheBowlBoy
    One of those spots where you're sometimes beat but even when they do have the flush you have a ton of outs to a boat or quads, and sometimes they show up with much worse.
  • iNano78iNano78
    Richard~ wrote: »
    Nothing you can do really but you need to v-bet between 2/3 and full pot every time. You're shoving over 9x the pot for really no reason ._.

    (Don't raise with the pp IMO, you want to lay yourself as implied odds as possible, hit the 4 and play a big multiway pot)
    Richard~ wrote: »
    You don't need to check to anyone but this shove is probably a leak and I wouldn't recommend it. If you pot bet and get called by a fd you get the value of the pot every time a suit card doesn't hit on the turn so you can't honestly want them to lay down..

    ^^ This. Pushing here is definitely -EV. If everyone folds, you were certainly ahead and win nothing but what's in the pot. If you get called, you are certainly behind (either to a made flush or higher set) and lose your stack. The only time it's mathematically correct to push here is if your remaining stack is less than the pot, giving you > 2:1 odds if called.

    Given your remaining stack and those at the table, I'm going to value bet about 2/3 of the pot maybe 70% of the time, and the other 30% I'm going to check-call a bet based on my 34% chance to beat a made flush by the river vs. pot odds I'm being offered.
  • UnknownUnknown
    iNano78 wrote: »
    34% chance to beat a made flush by the river vs. pot odds I'm being offered.

    thanks for this number. see i expect the top pair and or ace of clubs to call and of course two pair. don't usually anticipate the made flush, its rarer i think but yes i still get 34% on it. ive only lost set vs set once in a few months so i never worry about that either. can an argument be made that im getting called we some of these lesser hands anyways?
  • iNano78iNano78
    darbday wrote: »
    thanks for this number. see i expect the top pair and or ace of clubs to call and of course two pair. don't usually anticipate the made flush, its rarer i think but yes i still get 34% on it. ive only lost set vs set once in a few months so i never worry about that either. can an argument be made that im getting called we some of these lesser hands anyways?

    Anytime.

    I wish I only lost to set-over-set (or boat-over-boat) once a month!

    Actually, here's an ironic HH (vs. 44) from a VERY micro stakes game I was playing last month. Please excuse the low stakes; I only put enough money on FTP for the odd PCF tourney and was just goofing around. Also, I wasn't quite getting correct odds on the turn vs. a made flush, but given some other info on my opponent plus the call (vs. raise) on the flop, I figured there was a good chance he didn't have it... and if he did, I've still got my 10 outs to beat him.

    Unfortunately for me, I was already 98% to win, and really didn't want to boat up on the river...


    Full Tilt Poker Game #17018818964: Table Croft (6 max, deep) - $0.02/$0.05 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:45:46 ET - 2009/12/22
    Seat 1: mixxman ($27.23)
    Seat 2: queenb71 ($10)
    Seat 3: saya_killer ($15.16)
    Seat 4: vixdique22 ($6.83)
    Seat 5: iNano78 ($7.51)
    Seat 6: tojo jersey ($11.31)
    vixdique22 posts the small blind of $0.02
    iNano78 posts the big blind of $0.05
    tojo jersey has been disconnected
    tojo jersey has reconnected
    queenb71 posts $0.05
    The button is in seat #3
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to iNano78 IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Kd.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Ks.gif[/IMG
    tojo jersey calls $0.05
    mixxman folds
    queenb71 checks
    saya_killer calls $0.05
    vixdique22 calls $0.03
    iNano78 raises to $0.30
    tojo jersey calls $0.25
    queenb71 folds
    saya_killer calls $0.25
    vixdique22 calls $0.25
    *** FLOP *** IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/5h.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/4h.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Kh.gif[/IMG
    vixdique22 checks
    iNano78 has 15 seconds left to act
    iNano78 bets $1
    tojo jersey folds
    tojo jersey is sitting out
    saya_killer calls $1
    vixdique22 folds
    *** TURN *** IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/5h.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/4h.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Kh.gif[/IMG IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Qc.gif[/IMG
    iNano78 bets $1.50
    saya_killer raises to $13.86, and is all in
    iNano78 calls $4.71, and is all in
    saya_killer shows IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/4d.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/4c.gif[/IMG
    iNano78 shows IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Kd.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Ks.gif[/IMG
    Uncalled bet of $7.65 returned to saya_killer
    *** RIVER *** IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/5h.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/4h.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Kh.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/Qc.gif[/IMG IMG]http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/images/smilies/4s.gif[/IMG
    saya_killer shows four of a kind, Fours
    iNano78 shows a full house, Kings full of Fours
    saya_killer wins the pot ($14.63) with four of a kind, Fours
    tojo jersey has been disconnected
    iNano78 is sitting out
  • UnknownUnknown
    i posted losing to quad fours in the bad beat section, man...i see quads like twice a day.
  • Richard~Richard~
    Just cause we talked about it. This is probably not an optimal line but he's not calling if put another raise on on the flop

    PokerStars Game #38005514084: Tournament #262010431, $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (60/120) - 2010/01/11 20:18:44 CET [2010/01/11 14:18:44 ET]
    Table '262010431 45' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: caravaner (2210 in chips)
    Seat 2: andy8903 (5465 in chips)
    Seat 3: alltyreman (3470 in chips)
    Seat 4: fanliorel (8405 in chips)
    Seat 5: River_cola1 (4430 in chips)
    Seat 6: IRichardI (6975 in chips)
    Seat 7: amoraga8 (4755 in chips)
    Seat 8: berman As (5350 in chips)
    Seat 9: CHABALLA (6630 in chips)
    caravaner: posts the ante 15
    andy8903: posts the ante 15
    alltyreman: posts the ante 15
    fanliorel: posts the ante 15
    River_cola1: posts the ante 15
    IRichardI: posts the ante 15
    amoraga8: posts the ante 15
    berman As: posts the ante 15
    CHABALLA: posts the ante 15
    amoraga8: posts small blind 60
    berman As: posts big blind 120
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to IRichardI [:2c :2d]
    CHABALLA: folds
    caravaner: calls 120
    andy8903: folds
    alltyreman: folds
    fanliorel: calls 120
    River_cola1: folds
    IRichardI: calls 120
    amoraga8: calls 60
    berman As: checks
    *** FLOP *** [:jh :2h :4h]
    amoraga8: checks
    berman As: bets 240
    caravaner: folds
    fanliorel: raises 800 to 1040
    IRichardI: calls 1040
    amoraga8: folds
    berman As: calls 800
    *** TURN *** [:jh :2h :4h] [:qs]
    berman As: bets 600
    fanliorel: calls 600
    IRichardI: raises 5200 to 5800 and is all-in
    berman As: calls 3575 and is all-in
    fanliorel: folds
    Uncalled bet (1625) returned to IRichardI
    *** RIVER *** [:jh :2h :4h :qs] [:kc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    berman As: shows [:js :4s] (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
    IRichardI: shows [:2c :2d] (three of a kind, Deuces)
    IRichardI collected 12805 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 12805 | Rake 0
    Board [Jh 2h 4h Qs Kc]
    Seat 1: caravaner folded on the Flop
    Seat 2: andy8903 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: alltyreman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: fanliorel folded on the Turn
    Seat 5: River_cola1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: IRichardI (button) showed [2c 2d] and won (12805) with three of a kind, Deuces
    Seat 7: amoraga8 (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 8: berman As (big blind) showed [Js 4s] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Fours
    Seat 9: CHABALLA folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  • TilterTilter
    How about a standard bet of 4800? This will prevent getting snap called by flushes and only hands that have you beat. You'll also get some value out of your hand, and you could fold if someone raises + reraises.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Tilter wrote: »
    How about a standard bet of 4800? This will prevent getting snap called by flushes and only hands that have you beat. You'll also get some value out of your hand, and you could fold if someone raises + reraises.

    if i get re raised hard, theres no way to tell if its from an ace king or two pair...or higher set, flush or flush draw...
  • TilterTilter
    darbday wrote: »
    if i get re raised hard, theres no way to tell if its from an ace king or two pair...or higher set, flush or flush draw...
    But getting all in vs ace king, two pair, flush draw is better than getting all in vs higher set/flush :P You always want to be ahead of some hands in all-in situations :)

    So the question is, do you think ace, king, two pair, ace club will auto stack off to your 40 BB shove and thats probably an emphatic "no" except for maybe ace club with a spewy donk.

    And standard raising allows you to fold, if there is sick action behind raise + reraise before it gets back to your normal open bet sizing.

    Your bet sizing is like how can I protect my hand from losing money to a flush draw, as opposed to maximizing my value when ahead and minimizing my losses when behind.
  • Richard~Richard~
    Tilter wrote: »
    And standard raising allows you to fold, if there is sick action behind raise + reraise before it gets back to your normal open bet sizing.

    You think so? if he gets that much action in front of him he's getting a pretty nice price to run the turn and river against flushes. Unless it's set over set but I don't even bother trying to dodge that most of the time given how people play.

    I don't think he should use normal bet sizing to get away from his hand I think he should use it to widen the ranges he gets value from
  • TilterTilter
    Richard~ wrote: »
    You think so? if he gets that much action in front of him he's getting a pretty nice price to run the turn and river against flushes. Unless it's set over set but I don't even bother trying to dodge that most of the time given how people play.

    I don't think he should use normal bet sizing to get away from his hand I think he should use it to widen the ranges he gets value from
    One post before yours, I stated he'll be able to get more value by getting all-in vs a wider range from villain. "But getting all in vs ace king, two pair, flush draw is better than getting all in vs higher set/flush :P You always want to be ahead of some hands in all-in situations" <-- in regard to OP not knowing what to do if he made a standard bet and got raised on the flop

    But you're right, if we're getting anything near 2:1 after factoring in possibility of them on an AcX draw and if you get both players in, def +cEV to stack it off.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Richard~ wrote: »
    Nothing you can do really but you need to v-bet between 2/3 and full pot every time. You're shoving over 9x the pot for really no reason ._.

    (Don't raise with the pp IMO, you want to lay yourself as implied odds as possible, hit the 4 and play a big multiway pot)

    What is...... arbitrary?
  • HammerDadHammerDad
    Aside from the limp preflop, which I actually don't mind, I hate how this hand was played.

    You aren't getting called by a worse hand here 9/10 times. Most hands that call this will have you beat pretty badly (over sets and flushes).

    Plus, if there is a worse hand out there, you will get no value from them. The guy with the naked Ac would probably lay it down.

    IMO, bet pot (or close to it) on the flop. If it goes raise, reraise/shove....you fold losing the minimum. If it goes raise and call, you see the turn and if you've improved and if you don't improve it is a check/fold.

    Shoving the flop doesn't allow people with worse hands to call and only opens us up to getting stacked.
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