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how much dead money makes a flush draw over straight worth it?

UnknownUnknown
in MTT Strategy
#Game No : 8746022207
***** Hand History for Game 8746022207 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $6 USD Buy-in Trny: 49232955 Level: 3 Blinds(50/100) - Sunday, December 27, 16:10:45 EST 2009
Table $2K Gtd Regular (1819895) Table #27 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: Goldhamster6 ( 2,180 )
Seat 1: KJprof ( 3,790 )
Seat 3: NSValleyMan ( 8,715 )
Seat 8: HERO ( 1,830 )
Seat 2: ganagy ( 3,340 )
Seat 5: kegel08 ( 2,640 )
Seat 4: linda6365 ( 3,060 )
Seat 6: mariomitica ( 1,340 )
Seat 7: pokeface1983 ( 4,515 )
Seat 9: ubulka77 ( 2,960 )
Trny: 49232955 Level: 3
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 3s 2s ]
ubulka77 calls [100]
Goldhamster6 folds
KJprof calls [100]
ganagy folds
NSValleyMan calls [100]
linda6365 calls [100]
kegel08 folds
mariomitica calls [100]
pokeface1983 calls [50]
HERO checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, Td, Js ]
pokeface1983 checks
HERO checks
ubulka77 checks
KJprof checks
NSValleyMan checks
linda6365 bets [400]
mariomitica calls [400]
pokeface1983 calls [400]
Your time bank will be activated in 6 secs. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
HERO will be using his time bank for this hand.
HERO is all-In [1,730]
ubulka77 folds
KJprof folds
NSValleyMan folds
linda6365 folds
mariomitica is all-In [840]
pokeface1983 calls [1,330]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
pokeface1983 shows [ Jc, Qs ]two pairs, Jacks and Tens.
HERO shows [ 3s, 2s ]two pairs, Tens and Twos.
mariomitica shows [ 6c, 9d ]a pair of Tens.
pokeface1983 wins 980 chips from the side pot 1 with two pairs, Jacks and Tens.
pokeface1983 wins 4,820 chips from the main pot with two pairs, Jacks and Tens.
Player mariomitica finished in 432.
Player HERO finished in 431.

Comments

  • syphilaidssyphilaids
    WHY are you shoving when you are getting perfect odds to chase???? Only reason to shove is if you think you can get everyone to fold, and there is no way thats going to happen in a limped pot.
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    You have to becareful when you play these lines. They don't make sense and most people will look you up with a single pair. There should already be an idea in your mind how you want to play the hand before you even see the flop or the action gets to you. There should be variables thought of as well

    IE - do i want to rep a certain hand, what do i do if there is a raise/limp etc, what are the rest of the players doing at the table, how to they perceive me, have i just played a hand well, am I calling/raising/folding too much.

    All this has to go into your thought process before you do something like this. To open shove with the lowest flush draw makes no sense on that board after 3 people have already started action before you.
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    blackmagicz wrote: »
    You have to becareful when you play these lines. They don't make sense and most people will look you up with a single pair. There should already be an idea in your mind how you want to play the hand before you even see the flop or the action gets to you. There should be variables thought of as well

    IE - do i want to rep a certain hand, what do i do if there is a raise/limp etc, what are the rest of the players doing at the table, how to they perceive me, have i just played a hand well, am I calling/raising/folding too much.

    All this has to go into your thought process before you do something like this. To open shove with the lowest flush draw makes no sense on that board after 3 people have already started action before you.



    +1 to the tee!:)
  • UnknownUnknown
    syphilaids wrote: »
    WHY are you shoving when you are getting perfect odds to chase???? Only reason to shove is if you think you can get everyone to fold, and there is no way that's going to happen in a limped pot.

    this isn't a regular play for me yet. but i know i can get one guy to fold and im hoping both but likely will get top pair to call. with all the extra money im think there a point where its worth it. as for as odds to call.....its fold or shove at this point i believe.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    73.
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    darbday wrote: »
    this isn't a regular play for me yet. but i know i can get one guy to fold and im hoping both but likely will get top pair to call. with all the extra money im think there a point where its worth it. as for as odds to call.....its fold or shove at this point i believe.

    Ok I think you are confusing some concepts. You are correct in the assumption that you may get 1 to fold and top pair will call but only have the lowest flush draw to shove with is very bad poker. I mean what happens if you do get called and villian has 1 spade and the board runs spades, you lose still.

    In a tournament it is about maximizing your ability to profit from others mistakes. Here you are playing 23 suited OOP for your entire tournament life. I don't see how this can be profitable and for the most part in tournaments if you are doing volumes you want to make sure you are consistently making profitable plays.
  • UnknownUnknown
    well im looking at this like this....there is 1900 in the pot plus another 1730 for each caller or 1330 for the one who bet and the caller already. with the better and caller to act and the others already showing weakness i think its likely that the top pair, two pair, or set will call me, and the other guy will lay down. i may get any flush draws to lay down and they prob aren't that likely either. that means im putting in 1730 to make what i think will be 3230 i think maybe not enough but maybe thats close i dunno.....?
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    darbday wrote: »
    well im looking at this like this....there is 1900 in the pot plus another 1730 for each caller or 1330 for the one who bet and the caller already. with the better and caller to act and the others already showing weakness i think its likely that the top pair, two pair, or set will call me, and the other guy will lay down. i may get any flush draws to lay down and they prob aren't that likely either. that means im putting in 1730 to make what i think will be 3230 i think maybe not enough but maybe thats close i dunno.....?



    boy you are sooooooooooooooooooo wrong there, higher flush draws will not fold in a million years and with all that limping it is very likely their is one out there, but keep at it trying to improve your game darb, nothing wrong with asking:)
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    6,273,783 games 14.289 secs 439,063 games/sec

    Board: Ts Js 8d
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 33.119% 32.65% 00.47% 2048253 29677.50 { 3s2s }
    Hand 1: 47.797% 46.29% 01.51% 2903933 95025.33 { J2s+, J2o+ }
    Hand 2: 19.084% 17.56% 01.52% 1101913 95519.00 { random }

    Hopefully those numbers give you a little help. Phil is right, we will always help and answer questions but sometimes the easiest answer is folding when playing certain hands.
  • UnknownUnknown
    philliivey wrote: »
    boy you are sooooooooooooooooooo wrong there, higher flush draws will not fold in a million years and with all that limping it is very likely their is one out there, but keep at it trying to improve your game darb, nothing wrong with asking:)


    uhhhh.. i regularly throw down flush draws to overbet pots from pairs....don't you?
  • UnknownUnknown
    blackmagicz wrote: »
    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    6,273,783 games 14.289 secs 439,063 games/sec

    Board: Ts Js 8d
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 33.119% 32.65% 00.47% 2048253 29677.50 { 3s2s }
    Hand 1: 47.797% 46.29% 01.51% 2903933 95025.33 { J2s+, J2o+ }
    Hand 2: 19.084% 17.56% 01.52% 1101913 95519.00 { random }

    Hopefully those numbers give you a little help. Phil is right, we will always help and answer questions but sometimes the easiest answer is folding when playing certain hands.

    all this says is i need 2 to 1 i think and im better if the random folds

    im guessing there an amount that makes it worth it, i need to go back to my pot odds basics.

    thx all
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    Right the percentages dictate 2-1 but it doesn't assign an intrinsic value to your cards. Poker stove doesn't say 32suited is a great flush draw or 32suited is a horrible flush draw. Sometimes we have to look beyond pot odds and evaluate the actual strength of our hand.

    I think that is the point of this discussion. If you had gotten there on the river the post would have been "you got lucky" and a number of reasons would have been listed:

    1. No one else had a higher flush draw
    2. Guy stacked off with 1 pair and got out drawn


    Now since you missed, the concern voiced in the discussion is:

    1. Pushing 23suited for value
    2. Evaluating pot odds with a hand that has no real value unless you flop 332 or A45
    3. Playing these two hole cards over a large sample size will get you into trouble.
  • KristyKristy
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    73.

    +1
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    darbday wrote: »
    all this says is i need 2 to 1 i think and im better if the random folds

    im guessing there an amount that makes it worth it, i need to go back to my pot odds basics.

    thx all

    Please stop talking about pot odds when talking about finite tournament life.

    Stacking off with a 3 high flush draw is terrible here.

    Didnt read the rest of the thread.

    Probably not going to.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Kristy_Sea wrote: »
    +1
    is 73 kinda like what philli expresses to you?
  • UnknownUnknown
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    Please stop talking about pot odds when talking about finite tournament life.

    Stacking off with a 3 high flush draw is terrible here.

    Didnt read the rest of the thread.

    Probably not going to.

    if i stopped i would never learn about things like finite tournament life, thx for that.....

    so if you have the odds you might not push (nothing to do with this hand)?
  • UnknownUnknown
    blackmagicz wrote: »
    You have to becareful when you play these lines. They don't make sense and most people will look you up with a single pair. There should already be an idea in your mind how you want to play the hand before you even see the flop or the action gets to you. There should be variables thought of as well

    IE - do i want to rep a certain hand, what do i do if there is a raise/limp etc, what are the rest of the players doing at the table, how to they perceive me, have i just played a hand well, am I calling/raising/folding too much.

    All this has to go into your thought process before you do something like this. To open shove with the lowest flush draw makes no sense on that board after 3 people have already started action before you.

    i 'am not' playing suited connectors oop, i checked from the big blind and shoved the flop, position is irrelevant i think........but the rest i don't argue with.....
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    darbday wrote: »
    so if you have the odds you might not push (nothing to do with this hand)?

    I dont want this thread to go all tournament theory, but thats correct.

    My tournament life is more important than me putting my money in 3 ways with a 30%er, regardless of the odds.

    I also think you have much less than originally posted in BMZ's stove because hand 2 is definately not random. But back on topic.
  • KristyKristy
    compuease wrote: »
    is 73 kinda like what philli expresses to you?

    no, philli expresses " 8==) " to me iirc.
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    Kristy_Sea wrote: »
    no, philli expresses " 8==) " to me iirc.



    HA! I think(that is good right Kristy???, now I have to learn this number language sigh)
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    darbday wrote: »
    i 'am not' playing suited connectors oop, i checked from the big blind and shoved the flop, position is irrelevant i think........but the rest i don't argue with.....

    ** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, Td, Js ]
    pokeface1983 checks
    HERO checks
    ubulka77 checks
    KJprof checks
    NSValleyMan checks
    linda6365 bets [400]
    mariomitica calls [400]
    pokeface1983 calls [400]


    That seems like you are playing suited connectors OOP? being the BB you are out of position unless you are heads up with SB? I also hope you are talking about position in being important in the revelance of your hand being a flush draw.

    I mean in general terms "position" is your most powerful weapon, especially in a tournament.

    Keep posting and we will keep assisting you when you want. (I know I still need it 95% of the time)
  • UnknownUnknown
    nope i just mean its not a factor here in this hand, anyways we should end this silly thread.
  • TilterTilter
    The All-in is pretty meh. There is even a case for folding.

    For sure when you go all-in, you're gonna get some callers where 9x hi will already be beating you. And there is a possibility that the better or one of the 2 callers has a larger flush draw.

    The one thing you got going though is you'll be getting a very nice price by getting all their chips in if your flush draw is LIVE!
  • UnknownUnknown
    Tilter wrote: »
    you'll be getting a very nice price by getting all their chips in if your flush draw is LIVE!

    this was my actual question. and it turns out i created that situation against his top pair
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