How can I avoid this?

So I'm playing a 200-player tourney (there are only 15 players left tough), we're at blinds level 1000-2000 and the average chip stack is about 40K. I have 22K remaining, blinds go up every 15 min.

It is folded around to me in the small blind. I got two black 5's so I raise the big blind 4K more. He calls. Flop comes 4-6-8 with two spades. I think of it for a while and push in my remaining 16K, thinking my opponent (who is the table chipleader at the moment) might only have ace-high or some kind of crap (he's been playing lots of hands). He finally makes the call and tables K-4 offsuit, no spades.

Well, the turn comes a six and the river an eight, forfeiting my pair of fives and giving the BB the winning hand: 6s and 8s with king kicker.. ouch! this one hurt.

Would anyone have any advice on playing such "middle-strength hands" in the late stages of a tourney? Should I've went all-in before the flop or just called? Isn't the "all-in approach" a bit too reckless at this point of the tournament?

Thanks in advance!
Felix

Comments

  • BB's stack size? (sorry missed that he's the chip leader in the OP). I'm assuming you're in the money at 15.

    If you're going to play those (and I would with 11 BB's). I shove.....I don't want him to see anything he even remotely likes..
  • Just as I was submitting, I get a 404 error..sheesh

    Push or fold preflop, and folding is the wrong answer.
  • STR82ACE wrote: »
    Just as I was submitting, I get a 404 error..sheesh
    It was probably the father of your 1st grandchild to be... :)
  • compuease wrote: »
    It was probably the father of your 1st grandchild to be... :)

    Okay, I'm going to type this very slowly, because you're old...
    SHUT
    THE
    FUCK
    UP!!!
  • compuease wrote: »
    It was probably the father of your 1st grandchild to be... :)



    LOL, now compuease don't start, he is under enough stress:)
  • Call, likely he has at least one over and if he has good cards you are not likely wanting to see the river with a pair of 5s.
    If he comes over fold.
    If the flop does not bring trips, give up the pot.
    my play anyway.
  • Comp is just trying to toughen AJ up for the inevitable. He has been there remember, even if it was before mom's had cars.
  • Chipleader had somewhere around 60K, and we had just entered the money. Guess I should've shoved as he would likely not have called a 20K bet...
  • Guess I should've shoved as he would likely not have called a 20K bet...

    If you're gonna play 'em, that's the key.
  • Assuming no antes, you have an M of just over 7. You should break your wrists pushing your chips into the middle.
  • ^^ I would agree but I don't know if there are others on life support that could move him up the money ladder.
  • There were 3 players in the 20K range on the table, including myself (out of seven seated players). I really saw this hand as an opportunity to double-up at this stage.
  • Go big or go home. Fuck the "money ladder"... You are there to win. Shove or fold.
  • Found myself in a similar spot last Friday, cept we weren't quite in the money yet. I was in the cutoff with 55, folded to me, I had about 6 BB's, SB was a big stack, BB about the same as me.

    I'm in auto jam mode here.......my luck was about as good as yours, as the SB picks up A's and I'm out.

    But, with <10 BB's you should be shoving here....all day, every day.
  • shove preflop, i may consider folding because youve already passed the blinds and you prob still have alot of time. everyone is playing tighter so you can get some steals in. no doubt there are a few people around who are playing over there heads. but for that same reason i could argue to shove. i don't think you could go wrong with it.
  • str82ace wrote: »
    push or fold preflop, and folding is the wrong answer.

    this
  • With less than 14 BB's it's simple. Whenever you're in doubt, just push in all of your chips but one and type "dooooo iit =)" in the chat. This usually throws people off
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    With less than 14 BB's it's simple. Whenever you're in doubt, just push in all of your chips but one and type "dooooo iit =)" in the chat. This usually throws people off

    rofl I like this strat, never thought about it before
  • Seriously though, as people have said this is a pretty standard shove. If he calls 20 percent which is a lot you still have 45% equity against his range which you more than make up for during the 80% that he folds
  • Richard~ wrote: »
    Seriously though, as people have said this is a pretty standard shove. If he calls 20 percent which is a lot you still have 45% equity against his range which you more than make up for during the 80% that he folds

    How you get 45%?
  • syphilaids wrote: »
    How you get 45%?

    Pokerstove.

    Anyone like or hate 7K pf...psb on flop?
  • 7k....shouldn't you just shove pre-flop then or are you looking trap him into shoving back? seems kinda mean
  • your the low stack, less than 11bb's with a pp, my chips would be in the middle in about .00002 nanoseconds. Make them seriously think if a picture card is good enough to play with. Most times you will find their answer is no. Unless you let them in cheap enough to fish around.
  • westside8 wrote: »
    Pokerstove.

    Anyone like or hate 7K pf...psb on flop?

    In a tourney with some kind of play left I might advocate something less than a shove (especially when there are people willing to give away 25% of your stack just to try to miss the flop with rags), but with M=7 and 15 minute blinds jam your gold in and practice your flipping skills.

    Edit: You're in SB? Break wrists jamming gold and then cry when you still lose to K4
  • Go all-in preflop. You got 22K (11 BB), raising 6K and leaving yourself 16K when the flop will not be 234 or 5xx 90%+ of the time and you're left puzzled about how to act.

    And for the people who want the math breakdown on how this is profitable. BTW shoving any two cards from SB with 11BB is profitable, but that is a secret you have to learn yourself.

    SB shoves 22K
    BB calls with top 20% of his range.

    Option 1: SB Folds -1K

    Assuming you're playing on a decent site like Pokerstars where Antes are 200 @ 1/2K blinds

    Antes = 7 x 200 = 1400 chips

    Option 2: You shove for 22K
    80% of the time, BB folds and you win his 2000 + 1400 in antes for +3400
    20% of the time BB calls (66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo) <--which imo is very inaccurate, but you guys wanted 20%

    55 will win 45.78% and lose 54.219%
    EV of shove = [BB Folds] + [SB Wins All-In] - [SB Loses All-in]
    = [0.80 * 3400] + [0.20 * .4578 * 45400] - [0.20 * 0.54219 * 45400]
    = 2720 + 4156 - 4923 = 1953

    Option 2 - Option 1 = 1954 - [-1000] = +2954

    Open shoving nets you 1.5 BB

    Poker is a game of volume + variance, and any edge you get, you should take.
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