People's view on Big Slick (AK)
I've really started to develop a love hate relationship with AK specifically AKo, in both limit and no limit.
This is likely because of my personal experience with the hand. While every situation is different, do you have an approach when it comes to dealing with this hand.
In limit do you keep being agressive with it even if you miss the flop, do you back off
In general are you comfortable having to get all-in pre-flop with AK, or is it a hand you generally still would rather see a flop with first.
This is likely because of my personal experience with the hand. While every situation is different, do you have an approach when it comes to dealing with this hand.
In limit do you keep being agressive with it even if you miss the flop, do you back off
In general are you comfortable having to get all-in pre-flop with AK, or is it a hand you generally still would rather see a flop with first.
Comments
with AKs ...i mite just push all-in :banghead:
but that's me :banghead:
and i'm
confused
A-K offsuite: I generally want to see a flop. If someone has went all in before me, preflop... depending on the player I am against I will call. However I, unprevoked will not push all in with A-Ko... like I said I would sooner see a flop.
A-K suited: Same thing here as above. I am not a big fan of pushing all-in preflop to begin with. However I am more apt to push it all-in unprevoked with big slick suited than unsuited.
Hope this helps.
In L or NL, I think it's worth a bet on the flop if you come up empty. If it's limit and I'm up against 2 others, I'll definitely bet to see if one folds and fire another bullet on the turn.
I believe I can now lay this hand down at key points.
I am now more discerning going all-in preflop with AKo.
The section is long enough that I can't restate every thing, but basically he comments on its versatility in no-limit.
He states, before the flop, "The math is simple. Against a pocket pair below Kings, your chances are just a tad less than even money. Against an ace or king and an undercard youre 75 percent. The only reall disaster is if you are agains two aces. Now your less than 10 percent. Even against two kings you are about 30 percent."
He goes on to mention several points of how AK will often win the money pre flop by everyone folding, or win the hand without improvement.
He feels that moving in pre flop with AK is often the best way to play the hand, simply because you are loosing out on 2/5 of the hands odds, when you see a flop, miss and fold.
Hopefully this helps a bit.
I noticed the same post on Fullcontactpoker.coms forum.
What do you think of the forum?
that has been more only post on the forum so far, i was impressed with the quality of responses.
i treat it like AA/KK sometimes and raise/reraise big preflop to try and take the pot down right there...and if i'm reraising, it usually means the pot is a good size to take down.......this helps you get paid off when you make a big play with AA/KK.....this includes the classic limp-reraise move that scares everyone if you don't do it often....if you add a hand or two (besides the two big pairs) to your requirements for early position limp-reraise, its definitely a good thing
for me, suited or unsuited doesn't really matter if i'm treating the hand as a big hand...i'm trying to get lots of money in early so i either take down the pot, or force someone else to make a tough call for lots of money......and in the end, like sklansky says, you are still going to be a 50% winner against lower pairs, and 30% against KK...
i think people tend to get scared of AK because of all the times they remember raising with it, missing, and then getting called when they bluff and waste more money.........but you have to bet with hands that miss sometimes otherwise you appear too tight and get no action when you make a raise.....plus, if you miss the flop, you often have 6 outs for the turn if someone calls your flop bet
now, i'm not saying raise preflop and bet big on the flop everytime, you gotta mix it up.....sometimes, especially in earlier positions, i will just limp and call whatever raises come my way, and then take it from there....if i miss the flop, easy dump, no harm done.....sometimes i'll raise in late position, and then check behind everyone on the flop, and evaluate further on the turn (if opponent then bets, either fold to the bet, or raise the bet on a bluff to make it look like i was slow playing....if opponent checks again, you'll win the pot with a bet the vast majority of the time; you can also check again)
NL is all about not being predictable and easily readable...try playing AK different ways, instead of always one way, and maybe it'll work for you
Cloutier and McEvoy in Championship NL & Pot Limit have a big write-up on this as well. Cloutier plays very cautiously and might take a run at the pot pre-flop but backs off on the flop if he doesn't hit it and anyone shows strength. Cloutier says to win big tourneys, you have to win with AK and beat AK. He also calls it the 'walking back to Houson' hand, since lots of guys lost their cars over this.
One of these two books also talks about the value of going all-in pre-flop. It is especially useful with more skilled players at the table when you fear being outplayed after the flop. By going all-in, you have basically taken the skill aspect out of it and will get to see all the cards with a pretty good hand. Going all-in tends to scare off a lot of players. You're likely only going to get 1-3 callers.
Against 1 caller with a random hand, you are almost 65% likely to win the hand. Against 2 you are almost 47% and against 3 you are almost 38%. I would guess in NL you are only likely to get 1 or 2 callers. I like those odds. Chances are, the hands are better than 'random' but the other post sums up your odds against big and little pairs.
For myself, in a NL tourney with a few limpers in front, I love to go all-in with it and take my chances. Callers or not, you'll take down the pot 70% of the time. In limit, I'd raise with this from most positions. You tend to get a lot of callers anyway, so if it doesn't improve and you see Q,J or T on the board, chances are you are beat. With a bunch of little cards on the flop, I'd bet into that on the chance I still have best hand and my overcards can still hit.
Mostly I want to see a flop with the hand, but I will all most always raise with it just to get a feeling of where I am pre-flop.
The only really exception for me is if I am in a tournament and approaching a bubble point. At this point pushing all-in makes the most sense for me. You will either win the hand right then or for most part get all your money in with a good 50/50 chance to take the pot.
A key phenomenon is that most reasonably skilled players will put you on AK when you raise pre-flop. I'm not sure why, but it seems to happen over and over. I noticed this when I'd raise pre-flop with TT, JJ, or QQ and the flop would come raggy with a king. Very often when I bet the flop, everyone folds! So, when you miss a flop with AK, your opponents assume you have AK.
Sometimes limping with it is a good thing. The corrolary is that most players will assume you DON'T have AK if you limped pre-flop. You can make a fortune when you make the broadway. The problem is that the blinds may get in cheap and make two pairs. But that brings me to my next point. To be successful with AK, you need to be able to fold it -- even pre-flop. I believe ScottyZ made a post in the online forum, where he had JJ on the button and a loose raiser raised, then a tight-raiser re-raised and another tight-raiser called. He folded JJ on the button. For me it would have been an easier fold holding AK, even suited.
The value of AK goes way up as you get deeper into a tournament, as you'll have many players go all-in to steal the blinds with any ace. So, re-raising all-in and isolating these players is real nice. It's also nice to take down a pot pre-flop when there are a few limpers. And, you don't mind getting called by one of the limpers as you know you're not likely in a whole lot of trouble.
Early in a tournament the value goes way down for AK. Winning the blinds is useless, and you seem to always win small pots or loose big ones because most players put you on AK. So, early in the tournament limping and folding is not bad. Also, folding pre-flop is not bad in certain situations.
So, use it to do what you need at a particlar moment in a tournament, or ring game, heeding other players tendancies. Also, most players will put you on AK when you raise pre-flop, so fold it when necessary.
Cheers
Magi
Note: I raise (first in) 3XBB with any pair, ak, aq, kq, and occasionally junk such as a suites connectors. So after a while people challenge me with lesser hands, and that's why im not always worried about aces or kings. Also, if im up against kings I can still hit my ace, and if I lose to AA im never disappointed.
For me, being aggressive with AK (eventhough it's a drawing hand) has worked the best. Fold equity is very important. When ever I play it weak, such as call to see a flop, I feel like it's putting all the pressure on myself, especially if I don't flop anything. It's like slowly giving away chips. And sometimes even if I hit my hand, someone else will have made a set with a low PP, or two pair with a connector, and I pay for it big time. Whereas if I was aggressive preflop I could of picked up the pot.