Folding to friends
What do you think about folding to friends?
I'm talking in situations where it is folded around to you in late position, you look down and see a hand like AJ, 99, KQ and then look over and see your best bud in the big blind struggling to stay above the water. Have you been in this situation before? Do we have any 'friends' when at the poker table and the money is down?
stp
I'm talking in situations where it is folded around to you in late position, you look down and see a hand like AJ, 99, KQ and then look over and see your best bud in the big blind struggling to stay above the water. Have you been in this situation before? Do we have any 'friends' when at the poker table and the money is down?
stp
Comments
Take him/her down. Otherwise if you are folding to them just because they are a friend, then I think that could be construed as collusion.
does keeping this other player around help you. a poker table is a tough spot to survive and sometimes keeping certain players around who are less likely to play back at you can be a good thing.
I'll give you an example. I was playing in a tourney recently, and i had a guy in the big blind, to my small blind. While i chose to win some money on a hand where i flopped quads, i didn't wipe the guy out, now that could be soft playing since i did it in small part because he was the closest thing to a friend on this table. I did it for a more poker related issue also. The button when we were both in the blind was really agressive and stealing a lot, the only thing that was keeping him even a bit at bay was having the BB (the guy i chose not to bust) play back at him a lot. If i lost him, the BB to my SB was a much more passive player and the button would have stolen without fear.
Sometimes keeping a friend or any other player alive can be in your interest, if it'll help you win in the end. That's the key distinction, you have to be doing it to help yourself win.
I'm starting to worry about you, stp! You have a friend that shoots angles by showing a card on an all-in, and now you're contemplating collusion. I know it's a bit harsh to call this collusion, but it is in my mind. Any time you play a hand differently solely because of your connection to another player it's collusion.
Now, if you spot a tell, or know something about your friends play -- that's different. For instance, if you know your friend is a hyper-aggressive bind defender, you will likely fold anything that you can't call a re-raise. Same goes if you spot something that tells you he's hoping you're going to try and steal his blind.
You should be looking to exploit your friend and anyone else at the table! If not, then a new game is in order.
Cheers
Magi
you have a big stack and there are 3 or 4 smaller stacks left at the final table. A fold would be required as you should let these players beat each other up and raise your position.
No need to lose any sleep over me. I don't have a friend that shoots angles, it was a totally hypothetical situation. As for me considering collusion, I don't think so. I am a very ethical player but I'm also a very good friend. I suppose that is why I struggle a bit with this particular situation.
A few months ago while playing in a tournament with a friend of mine at the "Venom no-limit club" I was in LP and my best friend in EP raised a sizable amount. I look down and see JJ, everyone folds...I fold. It got me questioning whether or not I call or play back at this guy if he's not my friend. Don't tell me you've never been in this situation. I do not consider this collusion but if it is it must be the 'grey area' of collusion. I can, if need be, justify this fold due to the fact that I know my friends playing style and figured he had me beat or at best it was a coin flip.
stp
Unwarranted soft play is a form of collusion. It's just a special case of chip dumping.
Only you know if this play was ethical or not. Playing JJ against a pre-flop raise is definitely not automatic. Whether or not you "could" justify the play is pretty irrelevant. The truth of the matter can be found in your own thinking at the time of play.
If you folded JJ here because you have a read on your friend's playing style and think he/she has a very good chance of having a coin flip or better hand against JJ here, then this is most likely ethical. In fact, it's probably very good poker. But again, you're the only one who really knows why you folded here.
Apart from knowing a specific player's style or for the purpose of varying your play in the usual sense, playing differently against one player (e.g. a freind) over another is unethical.
I would raise if the tournament situation warranted it, possibly with any two cards, depending on the remaining players' playing styles.
Again, raising in not always automatic (e.g. I wouldn't raise with complete rags into a very short stack or a loose blind defender), but it is wrong to treat the hand differently just because a friend of yours is the target of your raise.
Don't play poker with a friend if either one of you can't handle the outcome of a well-played poker hand between you.
ScottyZ
Did you see the WSOP TOC? Annie Duke took her brother down. Just like that. Folding to someone because they are your friend is not right. Like Scotty says, it IS a form of collusion and should not happen. Just dont do it.
Just my 2 cents.
Well, lets try to have a discussion without question ones level of ethics. If you've ever met me, or played with me you would know I am an ethical person.
I considered this a tough fold preflop against a player I know and respect..as a player. As previously stated, I had a tough time with this after the fact because I had questioned whether or not I would have played back at him if he wasn't my friend. Of course the fact that he is my friend means that I know everything about his playing style, I hope that I folded because of that and not because I know he only has $10 in his bank account (exageration but you get my drift).
I like what Chugs had to say about this topic. Is that a form of Collusion, soft play an opponent to use him for protection against a blind stealer?
Another Hypothetical scenario: Two friends in the WSOP who have a % of eachother, does it make sense to make plays at eachother? No. Is it unethical, probably. Is it against the rules? No. How can you prove that one player is choosing to not play when another is in the pot? I don't think you can.
I'm not talking about chip dumping at all, that's not cool. I'm talking about selectively choosing who you play against at the table, we do this all the time. I can understand that the reasons behind why we play against certain players and not vs. others are where the ethics come in.
stp
I hope it didn't seem like I was questioning your ethics. I meant very literally that you are the only one who could possibly know if you played this hand ethically or not. I didn't intend any kind of accusatory sub-text here.
Well, as I mentioned, using information about your friend's poker playing style to your startegic advantage is IMO both ethical and good poker.
I don't see this as unethical. If you believe that leaving a specific player in the game gives you some strategic advantage for future hands, I think this is okay.
This is already collusion.
ScottyZ
I was also thinking about the 'Pokerstars' team at the WSOP and if any of them changed thier game accordingly so that so many of them would make the money. I doubt it but you never know I guess.
You really think taking a % is of another player that you're in the tournament with is collusion? Hmm.
stp
I won't. What keeps me up at night is good games and rethinking any of my own horrible plays.
It sounded like a real hand. Lack of sleep (playing last night -- only one questionable play!) may have contributed to me missing "it's a hypothetical situation.
I'm confident you weren't considering collusion. I just wanted to point out that folding SOLEY based on him being your friend is collusion (in my opinion). As others have pointed out (and you below), there are circumstances where you fold based on the knowlege of your friend that others don't have. I also suggested that was kosher, in my opinion. We need to use all the information we have to make the best decision.
I can honestly say, I've never thought about soft-playing a friend. I totally agree that you should play based on the knowlege you have about your friend and the knowlege they have about you. I've made a few very difficult folds to friends based on their "uber-tightness" and their knowlege of me being a loose aggressive player (was it my raise with 45s UTG that gave me away?). I don't think this is a grey area at all. Using your knowlege to win is what everyone must do. Is it unfair that you know more about your friend than others? I don't think so. There may be regulars at the table that know more about each other than you do -- it all evens out. So, play to win is my motto.
Cheers
Magi
I have never had a problem with this... I call unless I know that my friend wouldn't be playing anything but a monster hands (AA/KK/QQ) and my hand is pocket 8's or under.
In fact I have at a tourney a few months ago, I called down a good friend. Someone I play weekly with, and hang out with. It was bubble time (5 paid places) and he had enough chips to hurt me (I was bubbling as well). He is a tight player and went all in +1 UTG (I was on the button). I look down and find TT, I looked across at him and knew he was probably playing Ace/paint (he really just wanted to survive the blinds). I called him, sure enough he had AJ off suit. He never improved and was out 6th and I finished second. I know he would have done the same to me, so there is never hard feelings. It is just poker.
I personally think so, but probably a lot of people do not see it this way.
Generally speaking, if there is any player in a tournament that another player (or players) has less incevntive than usual to bust, this puts all of the other players are a disadvantage.
As an extreme made-up example, say you are in a 101 player tournament, and all of the other 100 players all have a 1% piece of each other. This puts you at a slight disadvantage.
Although this is a silly example, I think the same idea still applies. In fact, nearing the end of the tournament, it even becomes plausible that extreme cases like this might approximately arise. What if 3 or 4 partners make the final table? They will have a real financial incentive to not only stay out of each others' way, but use artificial means to keep their teamates alive.
(As an aside, I think a legitimate version of team-based tournament poker might be an interesting format.)
I'm not sure if there are any rules concerning this, and if there were, they would be essentailly unenforcable anyway. I think it's one of those things that is so commonly done that people automatically think nothing is wrong with it.
I see nothing wrong at all with selling pieces of yourself (as long as the pieces total less than 100% of the entry fee that is) to people who are not playing in the tournament in question.
ScottyZ
P.S. If Dave Scharf and I are ever in a tournament together and wants to swap % with me, I am so in. I'll trade having loose ethics for that much +EV.
Collusion? Yes.
Would I do the same in the BB's position if it was my best friend or my brother on the button? Yes, absolutely.
Regards,
all_aces
I guess that might also depend on your chip position as well. If you have the chips to not worry about losing a BB. What if losing the BB would knock you down to less than 6x the BB. Would you still fold? Just a question.