20 Years Ago Today
YouTube - Gretzky gets #1851 pt. 1
Half of my life ago and I remember it like it was yesterday. As a Habs fan I'm not sure why I was so into this, other than the fact that he was the best ever.
Half of my life ago and I remember it like it was yesterday. As a Habs fan I'm not sure why I was so into this, other than the fact that he was the best ever.
Comments
But still a great player and embassador for the game.
Huh...
What are you 10
But he was NOT the Greatest Player EVER. Far from it.
I must be missing something.... I thought that when you not only had the best numbers, but also the best attitude, personality, and were a true role model, I thought that made you the best...
Though I guess he didn't have enough bling 'n bitches for the youngin's, and for a guy like AJ, he was too prissy what with the helmets and rinks with electricity...
Mark
Go ahead
Make your case... we're listening.
For my case I present the NHL record book.
I will give him his due respect, but I won't agree ever that he was THE BEST.
Gretzky never got into a scrap, never got more than a few minutes in penalities, always had his teammates defending him, and every player in the league was afraid to hit him.
BTW, Mark...the game was ruined when they decided to move them INDOORS!
More games to the season, a lot less aggression, totally different game style then the '60's or '70's. You think if Gretsky was playing back then he would have gotten away with it? Hardly, he would have been destroyed.
Other than the concept of setting up behind the net, did Gretzky really do anything to change the way the game was played? You might be able to make a case that the trap is a result of the era he played in, but I would argue it was a response to style rather than a particular player.
Who was the best of all time? Two words:
Bobby Orr.
No single player revolutionized his position, or the way the game was played, more than Robert Gordon Orr. He played the '76 Summit Series on one leg, and the Russians STILL said he was the best they had ever seen. I would put Gretzky a close second, followed by Gordie Howe.
Not sure I would put Gretsky in second place, though, but definitely third.
No More Orr - Get Bobby Orr Out of the Hockey Hall of Fame!
Never heard anyone argue against WG being booted.... But then again, I was in the era of watching hockey in colour....
Also, FWIW, I find great logical errors in the argument that Gretzky isn't the best player because he did not do nearly enough of the illegal things in the game... That's like saying Henry Ford was a lousy businessman because he didn't exploit third world / immigrant workers enough, or that Brett Farve is a lousy football player because he hasn't been caught with enough banned substances.
Mark
I liked the OP, its neat to watch little pieces of history like that.
The point I was making is that its a totally different game, and that Gretsky wouldn't make it past the farm teams of the '60s let alone into the professional league. He's just not that good of an ALL AROUND PLAYER. And by that I mean he was never an aggressive player. Yes, he can skate and score, and gets his team to support him, but if anyone would have checked him at all, he would have spent more time on the DL than any other player in the history of the league because he didnt' have the skills to take a hit.
I'm not saying he wasn't a great player, because he was.
Yea, I found that website a couple of years ago, and its still a bullshit website that should be blocked for spreading hatred and lies.
Judge for yourself, but imo, Bobby Orr is still THE GREATEST HOCKEY PLAYER EVER.
YouTube - Gretzky Vs Orr: Gretzky the Best...Orr is he?
Mark, I do not think Orr >>> Gretzky because of the illegal things. Here is my argument. Like me, it will be a little scrambled, so bear with it.
Gretzky +
phenomenal offensive player, owns every stat in this category
changed the way offensive tactics were designed
made his teammates better by his awareness of position/flow
Gretzky -
not a two way player, all offense
sheltered by teammates
style of play in his era conducive to his talents
Orr +
revolutionized the game at BOTH ends of the ice
offensive threat as well as defensive standout
made teammates better by his awareness of position/flow
Orr -
career hampered by persistan knee problems
Please note that the only negative I could think of for Orr is one which, if you want, could be interpreted in a positive light. If knee scopes had been available to Orr, his career would have been much longer, and his stats even more impressive.
Sorry, but my dream hockey team starts with Bobby Orr as the #1 pick.
You're correct. No team from the 60's and 70's would be able to compete with the players in the 90's. Watching your video....I know why Orr looks so good: Cause the other players can't even skate. About a minute and a half into the clip....watch the 3 players standing on the blue line as he skates by. Those end to end rushes look great right up until Scott Stevens destroys him at the blue line. Players in the 90's lift weights and train and take steroids! Players in the 60's go back to their regular jobs in the off season.
I can hardly wait for the Wilt Chamberlain was better than Shaq/Garnett/Duncan etc thread. Or the Bjorn Borg was better than Sampras. I cannot think of any sport where the current players are not head and shoulders above ANY team from the 60's-70's. I like Orr....really do. He's the best player of his time.....no more no less.
Orr. Seriously.
We'll never be able to say who is the straight up best based on skill. A Bobby Orr in the 2010 season suddenly has to deal with an evolved understanding, equipment, and training regime of the game. 20 years from now, someone will destroy Gretzky's records with their sticks made out of light sabres or something, giving even more advantage
Mark
Gretzky's skills revolutionized the thinking on his position, and how it is played.
Orr's skills revolutionized the thinking on hockey.
Well said!
TASTES GREAT . . . LESS FILLING
AJ, I can cut you some slack since you're a Bruin fan, and I presume over 50, so you have some first hand knowledge to cloud your judgement.
Milo, I almost hope your thread-shitting or else I have to judge you as I do 98% of Leafs fans.
Settle in....
People living in the 416/905 area codes seem to have fallen into an abyss of hockey knowledge. A vast majority of Leaf fans are just that.....Leaf fans, not hockey fans. You people live in your self proclaimed "centre of the hockey universe" and you think that geography dictates that your grasp of the game is beyond all others. You robotically settle in Saturday nights to watch your beloved Leafs. You tune in to watch Don Cherry (this would explain some of the Orr love) spout his antiquated wisdom. And just like them you have stopped trying long ago.
The evidence of this is overwhelming. Tune into a Leafs game on TV and check out the prime seats as they remain sparsely populated for the first quarter of every period. Ask a die hard Leaf fan how they're enjoying the playoffs and you'll be met with a blank stare if the Leafs are already golfing. And lastly tune into sports radio at any time to listen to some of the most absurd hockey thoughts by those fans that just a few days ago were still rueing the fact that Mats Sundin was a "good" not "great" player simply because he wasn't of the same ilk as Doug Gilmour or Wendel Clark.
Sadly I have found that having an intelligent conversation with these people about hockey is akin to discussing nuclear science with the kid coming off the short bus.
fml!!!
Please note I never actually said he was the best player ever. I posted a clip of when he broke the scoring record making him the best scorer ever. That can not be denied. Period. In fact through all the wide open offensive years that Gretzky played in and since he retired in the easy game that hockey has become, there is only one other player that has surpassed Howe's mark. Messier hung on long enough to pass it too. Anyone think he may have Gretz to thank for it? Oh and Howe and Messier both played almost 300 more games to get their numbers......which are almost 1000 points behind Gretzky!
Now to debunk some of the myths that have been thrown around here.
Gretzky never had to worry about getting hit - Yeah, he stepped on to NHL ice at 19 and everyone in the league was told to keep their hands off. Ridiculous. Despite being barely 6 feet and 165 pounds, not the being the best or fastest skater he was the best at seeing the whole ice and avoiding being hit.
Gretzky only succeeded because Semenko was around. Borderline ludicrous. If you're going to detract Gretzky's accomplishments you may be better served pointing to the talent that surrounded him (Kurri, Coffey, Messier Anderson), than the thugery that apparently protected him.
He didn't "revolutionize" the game - This is the most ridiculous of all. The league changed "rules" because of the way the Oilers were dominating. Off-sides and off setting penalties if I remember correctly.
Bottom line is it's debatable only because of the different years in which they played. It's like debating Bonds and Ruth in baseball, there is no clear answer. My feeling is that if they had suited up in the same time and space Gretzky would have dominated in every era.
Not thread-shitting at all . . . Orr > Gretzky, imho.
For the record, I will cheer the Leafs on (where's that paper bag?) when they play, as they are my "home" team. Was a fan in the Dave Keon/Darryl Sittler era, but no more. If forced to pick a team, I think the Blackhawks are on the cusp, and would pick them as "my" team.
The vast majority of non-playoffs hockey is unwatchable these days. As a result, I no longer watch many games until the play-offs start.
Don Cherry is entertaining in so far as I like to see which furniture swatches he is wearing this week. Relevant? About as relevant as my poker skills are to winning the WSOP Main Event.
I enjoy hockey talk, and I think this has been a relatively intelligent discussion. I watched both players on TV, and had the pleasure of watching my Dad referee Gretzky, when 99 was still a kid, as well. It is my sincere belief that Bobby Orr had a more significant impact on the game of hockey than Wayne Gretzky, and is therefore the better player. You are free to think otherwise. None of this has anything to do with geography, although I would put Keon in my top 10 list of forwards (purely on sentiment).