Middle pairs in low-limit

I'm fairly new to limit, and am trying to wrap my head around the nuances of the game. I prefer NL holdem but have taken a bit of a break due to a run of bad beats. In a loose, low limit game what is the thinking with middle pairs (say 88-JJ)? I have problems with these hands in both early and late position. If there's 3 or 4 limpers and you're on the button, do you even bother to raise here as you know they won't fold? Ie are you justified simply raising for value? What about early position, do you raise to force others to call 2 bets with weak hands, or simply limp since you're out of position? I'm thinking you have to raise, as you know you're dead if overcards hit the board, but if you limp, you invite small cards into the hand to beat you as well. I'm looking to pick up a decent low-limit book in the near future (Lee Jones' book is on my Xmas wish list). Any insight would be appreciated...

Comments

  • First of all, if you're looking to escape bad beats, limit is not the place to go.
    In my expereicne you'll will experience more bad beats in limit b/c you cannot protect your hands. Mind you, your losses in limit bad beats are probably less. In any case, I like to see flops for as cheap as possible with middle pairs, unless i'm in late position where i will likely raise. Im generally looking for trips to take down a big pot, and am perfectly content to fold these pairs post flop, having wasted almost nothing. I don't like to raise from EP or MP with these because I wont want to call them down if a few over cards come down.

    I like to have myself in a positon where I'm not upset about laying down hands.

    Mind you, I am almost exclusivey a NL player with only low limit and tourny expereince with limit - It would be nice to hear some other responses.
  • I approach it 2 ways... if i'm early I limp...

    If i'm later.. .it depends on the population.. if it's only going to be 3-4 people seeing the flop if i limp..then I'd probably raise...basically in this case I'm hoping to win it on the flop if nobody improves. Maybe knock the blinds out PF..and have the others guessing. The raise can help you represent a strong Ace if one falls on the flop and it's checked to you.

    If we're looking at 5+ seeing the flop..I'd just limp. As said before..you probably won't knock anyone out..and you're probably on a 2 outer...in which I figure i'm better off seeing the flop cheaply with plenty of company and trying to squeeze out bets when I hit.
  • I like limping with any middle pocket pair from any early/mid position. 6-6 to 9-9, I'm probably going to fold if I'm at a tight table and it is reraised. 10-10 & J-J, I'll stick around to see a flop. If you are playing low limit, I think it's only worth your while to see a flop with a mid pocket pair, if you can disguise it(limp in)regardless of position. Just watch the pre flop raises, and get out immediately if you think your beat. I've just recently learned this. Having a set of 6's beat by a set of 8's or a set of 3's by a set of 5's is tough. Always be aware that someone may have flopped a higher set!

    As for the premium hands, AA,KK,AK raise from any position!

    Just my 2 cents.
  • With 3 to 4 people limping-in in front (this doesn't sound right?) and I'm on the button with a mid-pair (JJ-88) I think I would raise.

    The reason why I would raise is either to get the limpers out or get more money in the pot. If all the limpers call the raise and you make trips you are taking down a large pot.

    Also if you raised pre-flop and the limpers called their betting habits on the flop should tell you what they have.
  • OK,

    I think this is the heart of the question. I'll usually go ahead and raise in early position with 99 and up. Why?

    1) To get the blinds out. Last thing I need with JJ is a flop of 3-3-7 with the BB staying in for free with 3-2 offsuit.

    2) I want to punish players horrible enough to call here with A-rag, 2 suited cards, connected cards. I think this may be the key point. Shouldn't you be giving horrible players the opportunity to make as many mistakes as posible?

    I think this play probably adds to the variance (you'll lose more pots, because people will now chase anything for the bigger pot size), but you'll win bigger pots when your hand does hold up. So the question is, does this add to your profitability? From my experience with low-limit, it seems that if a weak player decides to play a hand, they will pay any price for it up until the turn (which is horrible, since they will often call 2 bets on the flop with a gutshot, but won't call one bet on the turn with the same gutshot, even though they now have better pot odds). So shouldn't I be using this to extract as many loose calls preflop and flop?
  • With low to middle pairs in a low limit game, you want as many people in the pot with you. It generally takes 2 pairs or better to win a low limit hand due to all the calling stations. So get in cheap and if you hit your set, you are in fine shape! Then you can start raising for value. If not, there's not much point persuing a 2-outer unless you've flopped into an open-ended straight but even that can be risky.

    With higher pairs, you can try to raise to get people out but it seems not many get out in low limit anyway. Here you are raising more for value but that is a questionable strategy too. It rarely pays off unless you hit your set.
  • It generally takes 2 pairs or better to win a low limit hand due to all the calling stations.

    So by this rationalization should you never raise preflop in low-limit? How about top pair, top kicker on the flop, or an overpair? Should I NOT bet or raise this hand because "people will call you anyways". It just seems that by playing this way, you will settle for only playing the nuts (or close to it) in which you will also win a smaller pot. I agree that you can't protect your hand against loose callers in this type of game, but surely making them pay dearly for their loose action must be a better play than letting them in cheaply?
  • ScoobyD wrote:
    So by this rationalization should you never raise preflop in low-limit?
    I raise pre-flop with hands that play well multi-player. These are high pairs, Ace-K/Q/J/T suited and AK. These get beaten regularly but at least when you win, the pot will compensate you. If you raise with lesser hands, yes, you'll build the pot but then you give the callers incentive (pot odds) to stay in post flop.
    How about top pair, top kicker on the flop, or an overpair? Should I NOT bet or raise this hand because "people will call you anyways".
    I would bet these hands and certainly call with them but only raise if I thought it would limit the field. A check-raise is effective if you can pull it off but it might be more effective to raise on the turn. These are good hands but often need to improve to be best hand at the river. Chances are at least 1 player will call you to the river.
    It just seems that by playing this way, you will settle for only playing the nuts (or close to it) in which you will also win a smaller pot. I agree that you can't protect your hand against loose callers in this type of game, but surely making them pay dearly for their loose action must be a better play than letting them in cheaply?
    Nuts are always welcome but rarely seen! I'll play good hands aggressively. Pre-flop I'll only play premium cards aggressively. I'll call pre-flop with good cards but I throw a lot of marginal stuff away.

    How do the other low limit players in this forum play? Maybe I should adjust so I could make more???
  • Your original request also related to position which I didn't address. I've done some thinking on that.

    With middle pairs, you either want to be heads-up, where you have a good chance to be best hand on the flop or multi-way, where you have a slight chance to catch a set and be best hand, where it really pays off. My original point was that multi-way, you generally have to have 2 pr or better to win the hand.

    From an early position, if you raise, you run the risk of being re-raised by someone with a better hand. Even if you are heads-up then, you likely have the worst hand, both before and after the flop. Without a re-raise, there is still a very good chance you'll get at least 3 callers in low limit. You'll need a very good flop to want to continue. So I'd be tempted to get in as cheaply as I can and hope for a good flop.

    From a later position, if no one has yet called, the best strategy may well be to raise. There is a good chance you could win it there or have only a single caller. Regardless of the flop, chances are good you have the best hand.

    If you are multi-way on the flop, chances are good someone with big cards called you (A/K/Q). The chances of one of these big cards hitting on the flop are greater than 50%. The chances of you hitting a set on the flop are something in the order of 10%. So I don't see the point in raising for value pre-flop. I'd get in as cheap as I can if it's going to be multi-way. If I don't hit the flop, I'm ready to throw my hand away if anyone shows strength. If I do hit it, then chance are pretty good I'll have the best hand at the river so I will do what I can to build the pot.

    Please let me know if there is a flaw in my logic. I'm alway interested in hearing other's perspectives on this.
  • Good post. You make a good point about if you get 3 bet behind you and are heads up with someone you are likely either a big dog, or at best a slight favorite (unless the guy is a maniac). I think you are right that in a multiway pot (say even 6 way) your raise gets you 6-1 on your money, but the odds of flopping the set is about 8-1. You also have smaller odds of flopping an overpair, and I think you can likely factor in some implied odds that if you hit your set, in loose games you can likely get everyone to call at least one small bet on the flop (a lot will even call 2 if you raise behind them). You're right, it's probably a very marginal raise for value, but I would be tempted to do it occaisionally, if only to mix my play up a bit. Most low-limit players are fairly oblivious to what other people might be playing, but eventually even bad players will start to notice if you only raise AA, KK, QQ, and AK preflop (although they'll still likely call).
  • Generally with pocket pairs 88 and below in LPLLHE, I'm looking to see a flop cheaply. I will almost never raise with these hands pre-flop from any position.

    Pairs 99 and TT are probably the trickiest to play. These pairs still aren't going to like many non-set flops, but these hands are not necessarily decimated by a flop like Q82 rainbow. I'd say I raise with these hands sometimes.

    With pairs QQ-AA I'll almost always raise or re-raise regardless of position, and play them fairly strongly when they flop as an overpair (or better). To be honest, I often overplay AA post-flop, and how to play this exact hand is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

    But, getting back to the medium/low pairs...

    In typical LPLLHE, folding your smallest pairs seems to me like you're missing some very profitable post-flop opportunities. The times you do hit your set, you will generally get paid off big time. Nighmarish outcomes like running into set over set are infrequent enough to not worry me.

    Raising with the small/medium pairs is not out of this world, although it's not my preference. Raising for value is pretty thin. You perhaps do have a very small pre-flop pot equity edge against random hands, but

    1. You'll rarely see the showdown when your hand flops unimproved *and* it would have won at the showdown.

    2. Your opponents hands are not quite random. Even LPLLHE players are more likely to have higher hole cards than lower.

    Raising to build a big pot and pot-stick people for the times you do hit is also unneccesary I think. LPLLHE players are naturally quite pot-stuck regardless of the pot size. :cool:

    ScottyZ
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