a hand that bothered me

ralphthemouse

PokerStars Game #882501337: Tournament #3519416, Hold'em No Limit -
Level IV (50/100) - 2004/11/22 - 07:52:27 (ET)
Table '3519416 3' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: mlmack (4085 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: Kathy777 (3995 in chips)
Seat 3: MITgirl (5420 in chips)
Seat 4: ralphdamouse (4420 in chips)
Seat 5: OmahaEd (1510 in chips)
Seat 6: BigBob868 (2610 in chips)
Seat 8: bcsuncle (2340 in chips)
Seat 9: luckyfish (1750 in chips)
BigBob868: posts small blind 50
bcsuncle: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ralphdamouse [A:spade: A:diamond:]
luckyfish: folds
mlmack: folds
Kathy777: raises 300 to 400
MITgirl: folds
ralphdamouse: calls 400
OmahaEd: folds
BigBob868: folds
bcsuncle: folds
*** FLOP *** [8:club: T:club: K:diamond:]
Kathy777: bets 300
ralphdamouse: raises 700 to 1000
Kathy777: raises 2595 to 3595 and is all-in

although the blinds were at 50/100, most were still in the tourney. It was an fpp tourney so top 9 make it. 10th gets nothing.

What would you have done?

Pigga

i know it probably sounds pretty obvious, but re-raise pf....i'd rather take down a small-decent pot w/ AA than lose a huge one.......

what kind of player is this opponent? was he/she pretty tight and conservative? with the re-raise all in, i'd probably think the person has a set or AK or AKc (Top pair, Top kicker, nut flush draw) could be plausible with this flop..... and maybe two pair (KT.....but i doubt it)

i would of re-raised preflop probably another 800-1000 more and seen what happens, with a pretty good chance of just pushing all in on the flop regardless of what came (short of all one suit/which i didnt have an ace for or a paired board of face cards...)

-this would be a potentionally scary flop for AA as well ...i would definately considering folding them, although i might not of been in this predictament in the first place (but im not perfect either, i might of tried to trap a few others in pf as well) i would of definately re-raised preflop more than likely, hoping for the other player to come over the top b/c u have the best hand pf, and each and every time i can, i will push all in pf w/ AA (unless 5-6players all in, on that odd occasion , since they will almost gaurenteed be cracked imo)

i think the person probably has AK moreso than a set i think...... do u know what the person had and what was the end result of the hand? im dying to find out

GL in future tourneys ralph, im sure ill be railbirding and cheering ya on!

Pigga

sweetjimmi

As Pigga said I would have reraised preflop. I think it is an easy call. The all-in bet is telling me they don't want action. I am guessing AK, AQ (double belly buster), or even a smaller pair then KK (small chance of AA I guess). I doubt they have set as they would still want you to chase a draw and therefore bet 2/3-full pot. They may even be on a flush draw. Since the WSOP was aired I have seen more players betting huge with flush draws than ever before. Regardless I think you are a big favourite in this hand and you call.

Let us know what happens.

Pigga

sweetjimmi wrote:

AQ (double belly buster)

correct me if im wrong but double belly buster is the same as having a doubled gutshot straight draw......where-as in this case it is just a gutshot straight draw if he does has AQ infact where only a Jack will make the all-in'er a straight.

Is a double belly buster not like this : example below,

Hero is holding 68 SOOTED (not important just felt like saying sooted)

board is 2-4-5

Dbl gutted in the sense that if a 3 comes on turn or river, Hero has a straight (2-3-4-5-6), and if a 7 comes on turn or river, Hero as well makes a straight. (4-5-6-7-8)

with the board of 8 T K, if the person had AQ, they only have a inside (gutshot) straight draw, where only a jack will complete their straight..

If i am wrong, feel free to flame away :banghead:

gordan_gecco

Pigga wrote:

correct me if im wrong but double belly buster is the same as having a doubled gutshot straight draw......where-as in this case it is just a gutshot straight draw if he does has AQ infact where only a Jack will make the all-in'er a straight.

Hi Pigga. That's right...a double belly-buster is simply two gutshots, as in the example you gave later in your post. Also note that a double belly-buster straight draw has the exact same odds of improving as an open-ended straight draw (i.e. 8 outs in the deck)...it's just sometimes easier to overlook the fact that you have a dbb draw.

GG

sweetjimmi

LOL...messed that one up. AQ is very unlikely then.

ralphthemouse

this is my thinking:

okay, it was relatively early in the tournament, and the moment she come back over top of me i knew i shouldve reraised preflop--but thats kind of a minor issue, any play there woudlnt have been bad

i hadnt seen much of her before this hand..was, like most people at the table, fairly tight. i assumed she had someting to raise with.

then on the flop comes the bet. i raise to a thousand--which was a big bet at the time.. and she goes all-in.

okay. the first thing im thinking is SET. you have to lay this down. but then i wonder if she wants to be called. it was such a weird play for her to be on a draw with--she bets 300 ('lets see what happens' assuming shes on a draw) then i raise and then it becomes all of a sudden, ('wth, all in!')

it looked like she had something. plus, i was on her end, and i had flopped a set, i wouldve gone all-in after the 1000 chip raise as well. conversely, i wouldve done the same thing with AKclubs.
but, i wasnt willing to find out at that point in the tourney, being one of the bigger stacks

i dont know, i was sort of playing scared money that tourney.. cuz i know these ppl are pretty good and play high stakes (omahaed was to my immediate left most of the tourney and to my immediate right for the rest of it).

i was a bit intimidated, and that definitely played into my decision here.. I FOLDED.

after thinking for a long time i decided that my chipstack if i folded was good enough that i had a very good chance of getting back up, and that AK was in my mind was less than or equally likely as TT or maybe KK..

i want to find out too lol. sorry to leave you guys hanging. :redface:

harthgosh

id call for sure. people play like idiots in fpp things. I think you were the best, but likely would get outdrawn by riverstars. shows that you know how to play tight though.

ciao
hg

sweetjimmi

What's with the hate Harth? You've been flaming PokerStars (RiverStars) quite a bit lately.

wader

She may have pushed on you because you didn't show strength preflop. I would put her on AK or possibly 1010. What kind of flop would you call an all-in with if the preflop situation was the same?

BigChrisEl

I can see her sitting on Trips and going all in to scare you off if you are drawing for a :club: flush, straight or even a straight flush.

ralphthemouse

wader wrote:

She may have pushed on you because you didn't show strength preflop. I would put her on AK or possibly 1010. What kind of flop would you call an all-in with if the preflop situation was the same?

thats a very good point. i originally put her on a PP 99 or higher-she wasnt extremely tight, but i couldnt see her raising with 88 or lower-so seeing 2 of those cards on the flop was a bit of a scare. i also thought about AK or AKs but didnt want to take the chance on her not having the set

if you think of it the other way, if the flop were rags or K xclubs xclubs, would she have played the same way? assuming AKc or TT?

ScottyZ

A difficult decision here, and I can't find anything horribly wrong with either alternative. The trouble with the pre-flop play is that your opponent could have a hand like AK *and* think that it's good. Even still, I like folding due to the great uncertainty about your opponent's holding combined with the (you said basically unknown) opponent showing great strength against a scary drawing board.

I'm not sure I would call a raise cold (in NL) with AA if this was the case:

i hadnt seen much of her before this hand..

I can see setting a trap like this against a predictably aggressive player (for example, someone who bets almost every flop, or someone with a betting reflex if it's check-check on the flop, etc).

Against a relatively unknown player, it's difficult to really know where you stand when your opponent comes out betting, mostly because you know that your opponent knows that you may not be strong.

If you meant that the opponent was unknown in the sense of being a tight player (i.e. you haven't seen him/her *play* many hands), I think I'd rather get the money from such a player pre-flop while the player is still around. Tight players tend to give you the unpleasant post-flop action of dumping their losing hands when they miss, or sticking around with hands that can beat AA.

ScottyZ

ralphthemouse

Against a relatively unknown player, it's difficult to really know where you stand when your opponent comes out betting, mostly because you know that your opponent knows that you may not be strong.

If you meant that the opponent was unknown in the sense of being a tight player (i.e. you haven't seen him/her *play* many hands), I think I'd rather get the money from such a player pre-flop while the player is still around. Tight players tend to give you the unpleasant post-flop action of dumping their losing hands when they miss, or sticking around with hands that can beat AA.

i love this concept.