Great Call or Angle Shoot? A hand from EPT

STR82ACESTR82ACE
in WSOP / WPT / EPT Discussion
PokerStars.com EPT in Barcelona earlier this week had poker pro Roland de Wolfe in a huge hand against German pro Tobias "Pokernoob" Reinkemeir.

The pot was already at 100,00 with river action still to come. The board was A98T4 (suits unknown, but there was a flush potential). Pokernoob checks, and de Wolfe bets out 95,000. After thinking for while, Pokernoob calls.

Wolfe shows one card and says King High. Pokernoob asks to see the other card. Instead, Wolfe hides his king and pushes both his cards UNDER the muck pile.

Pokernoob slams over Q6 for Queen high. De Wolfe calls for a floor decision, but its settled in Pokernoob's favour since de Wolfe's hand is dead. Pokernoob takes a 300,000 pot and a massive chip lead

Comments

  • MiloMilo
    All the guy did was ask to see both cards.

    Not sure how this is an angle . . . think it was Voodoo who said it, but:

    "How hard is it to just table your cards?"
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    I guess the angle shot could be defined as Pokernoob waiting until Roland either turned up both cards, or folded. He's known to bluff big in this spot with K high apparently, and Pokernoob was waiting to see if he would muck.

    I found a youtube in German of the hand, I'll try to post it here if I can, but the fist pumping by Pokernoob when Roland mucked just made it seem like a dirty stunt.
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    Commentary in German, only one I can find

    YouTube - Tobias Reinkemeier vs Roland De Wolfe - Sick hand at EPT Barcelona 2009
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    It is neither a great call or an angle shoot imo.

    If it was a great call he would have been right. He was not. Q high no good.

    He made the call, and wanted his opponent to flip his cards. If his opponent chooses to muck instead, whatever. Not an angle shoot - these are the rules.
  • wildbill7145wildbill7145
    Yup to what Wetts said. Buddy mucked his cards. Foolishly. Can't believe that at this level the guy is still bitching about it. Showed the video to my gf. She said "Guy's an idiot. He mucked. If you tried that crap on me at our home game, you'd be in serious trouble." She's usually the forgiving one!
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Here's the video

    YouTube - Tobias Reinkemeier vs Roland De Wolfe - Sick hand at EPT Barcelona 2009

    I think this is a combo of one guy being a dumbass, and the other guy being a douche. Sure, he didn't do anything outside the rules, but he sure as fuck ignored the spirit of the rules... 13cards and him would get along

    Mark
  • MiloMilo
    Only question I have is why, after the cards touched the muck, did the dealer then expose them? If the hand is dead, and it is because they were placed into the muck (yes, I know you could clearly tell which cards they were. Does not matter, they were mucked), why expose them? I did not hear anyone ask to see them on the tape, but I may be wrong.
  • JohnnieHJohnnieH
    Is German really that easy to understand?
  • MiloMilo
    Sure. Basically if it's not "call", "raise", "fold", etc., it's a detailed commentary on why invading Russia was a great idea . . . :D



    Dutch and German share similar development, language-wise.
  • DennisGDennisG
    Milo wrote: »
    Only question I have is why, after the cards touched the muck, did the dealer then expose them? If the hand is dead, and it is because they were placed into the muck (yes, I know you could clearly tell which cards they were. Does not matter, they were mucked), why expose them? I did not hear anyone ask to see them on the tape, but I may be wrong.


    If no one was asking to see the cards then there wouldn't have been the issue. Obviously Tobias asked to see the second card. Wolfe was called, he was required to show... Not sure how that rule works if the cards are mucked though...

    But yeah, he clearly mucked his cards..He should have been asking himself why tobias wanted to see it? Maybe Tobias had a king with a shitty(er) kicker too...
  • MuddgutsMuddguts
    Roland should have twigged something was up when he announced "King high" and the opponent didn't make a move to expose a better hand. He seemed so eager to ditch his hand. I am not an expert on rules but I agree with Roland though when he says "that's not in the muck", he still had his hands on the cards and the dealer physically prevented him from mucking. Robert Ciaffone's rule states: "Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game." I think this should have been done with a lecture to a pro who should know better. I'm not saying I am correct, I just saying what seems fair. [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
  • MiloMilo
    Well, if you want to go with what's fair, why not just state that, when he was called, Roland should have turned up his cards? Problem solved if that happens . . .
  • MuddgutsMuddguts
    Milo wrote: »
    Well, if you want to go with what's fair, why not just state that, when he was called, Roland should have turned up his cards? Problem solved if that happens . . .

    My fair statement was a poor choice of words to get my point across. I do agree that from the time Roland was called he went about finishing the hand all wrong. The fact that Roland did call his hand "king high", the dealer preventing the muck and that the dealer went about and exposed the hand immediately makes me think that Roland should have been awarded the pot with a warning.
  • AnimauxAnimaux
    My first thought was De Wolfe mucked his hand (his intention was clear) so it is dead.

    De Wolfe would have had a successful muck if Tobias hadn't asked to see the other card (probably wondered if they were both on club flush draws?), but it was this comment that made De Wolfe try to muck faster. The dealer prevented the muck only because Tobias asked to see the other card (since he called De Wolfe's bet). Tobias should have let the cards go into the muck. Geez, even with live camera footage, it is hard to make a call. In the end, I think it was the right call.
  • jacktenoffjacktenoff
    Muddguts wrote: »
    Roland should have twigged something was up when he announced "King high" and the opponent didn't make a move to expose a better hand. He seemed so eager to ditch his hand. I am not an expert on rules but I agree with Roland though when he says "that's not in the muck", he still had his hands on the cards and the dealer physically prevented him from mucking. Robert Ciaffone's rule states: "Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game." I think this should have been done with a lecture to a pro who should know better. I'm not saying I am correct, I just saying what seems fair. [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    You think it is fair for someone to fold but when the person realizes he had the best hand, it should be allowed to win? Thats stupid to put it mildly. De wolf folded, he loses. To give him the pot is just retarded. I can't think of any nice way of commenting on your post...
  • MuddgutsMuddguts
    jacktenoff wrote: »
    You think it is fair for someone to fold but when the person realizes he had the best hand, it should be allowed to win?

    I've read my post over and still can't find the part where I said that I believed his hand was folded?? I also mentioned in my next posting that "My fair statement was a poor choice of words". Might be good idea to fully read the thread and it's postings before not finding "any nice way of commenting" on a post.
  • T8urmoneyT8urmoney
    Call me a bad sport......but that was awesome.....

    and, of course his hand is dead
  • 88Fingers88Fingers
    wildbill7145 wrote: »
    Yup to what Wetts said. Buddy mucked his cards. Foolishly. Can't believe that at this level the guy is still bitching about it.

    This was my first impression. I mean, cmon you are willing to admit that you called him down with K high yet not strong enough to show the 8 kicker???
  • DasCoupeDasCoupe
    I may be going against the grain here... but...

    It was a showdown? Not a fold??

    He was prevented by the dealer from physically putting his cards under the much, his cards are still very obviously his...


    Did you guys notice how the guy was stalling forever to try and get him to show cards? Nobody showed cards at a showdown, wtf? Come on. Flip them over.

    Why would he muck without seeing that he lost? Buddy that won was being a dick by not turning his hand either...

    Dirty trick, I don't like it.
  • Richard~Richard~
    I love the trick and I guess the hand is dead since it was intentionally mucked, can't say I like the queen high call though ^^'
  • AnimauxAnimaux
    The next time I muck the best hand I hope the dealer will stop me and turn over my cards.
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