JJ on the Button: Call or Fold?

ScottyZ

PokerStars Game #874716443: Hold'em Limit ($10/$20) - 2004/11/19 - 22:33:50 (ET)
Table 'Hersilia' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ScottyZ ($685.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Loki-PH ($655.50 in chips)
Seat 3: ajaxx ($369 in chips)
Seat 4: Quandis ($896.50 in chips)
Seat 5: comecatchme ($23 in chips)
Seat 6: farroutt ($311 in chips)
Seat 7: dkota ($128 in chips)
Seat 8: theshakes ($696 in chips)
Seat 9: Bill T ($151 in chips)
Seat 10: Jesh ($255 in chips)
Loki-PH: posts small blind $5
ajaxx: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScottyZ [Jh Jc]
Quandis: folds
comecatchme: raises $10 to $20
farroutt: raises $10 to $30
dkota: folds
theshakes: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
Bill T: folds
Jesh: folds
ScottyZ: ?

comecatchme has PFR ~14% and is almost all-in
farroutt has PFR ~3%
theshakes has PFR ~2%

(PFR = pre-flop raising percentage)

Call or Fold?

ScottyZ

professor

I'd fold. With two tight PFRs in there before you with
healthy stacks, almost certainly there's AA, KK, or QQ
in the field.

Stalder

how do you determine PFR . . do you actually keep track manually as you play?

ScottyZ

Stalder wrote:

how do you determine PFR . . do you actually keep track manually as you play?

I use Poker Tracker.

ScottyZ

RoyalFlush

F-O-L-D.
You are dominated or coin flip. The second an Ace, K or Q hits, you are dead. Your only hope is to hit your two outs.

C.E.J

Fold.

ScottyZ

I folded. One of the players (I think it was the 3-bettor) had KK, and that won the pot unimproved.

I figured that was a fairly easy one, so here are the follow up questions that I had in mind. :cool:

1. What hands do you call with against the exact same opponents? Do you call with KK? How about QQ? Do you hate calling with AK (suited or not)? Do you fold speculative hands like hot potatoes?

2. What hands do you call with after the identical action when all of the opponents are unknown?

3. Does the information that the original raiser is nearly all-in change your calling standards in either case? Remember that the other two opponents still have plenty of chips.

Here's the rest of the hand history if you're interested. My 2 outs happened to be gone. :cool:

ScottyZ: folds
Loki-PH: folds
ajaxx: folds
comecatchme: calls $3 and is all-in
farroutt: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [5s 4h Qc]
farroutt: bets $10
theshakes: calls $10
*** TURN *** [5s 4h Qc] [6s]
farroutt: checks
theshakes: checks
*** RIVER *** [5s 4h Qc 6s] [8c]
farroutt: checks
theshakes: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
farroutt: shows [Kh Ks] (a pair of Kings)
theshakes: mucks hand
farroutt collected $54 from side pot
comecatchme: mucks hand
farroutt collected $81 from main pot
theshakes said, "nh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $138 Main pot $81. Side pot $54. | Rake $3
Board [5s 4h Qc 6s 8c]
Seat 1: ScottyZ (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Loki-PH (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: ajaxx (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Quandis folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: comecatchme mucked [Th Jd] - high card Queen
Seat 6: farroutt showed [Kh Ks] and won ($135) with a pair of Kings
Seat 7: dkota folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: theshakes mucked [Js As] - high card Ace
Seat 9: Bill T folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Jesh folded before Flop (didn't bet)


ScottyZ

JuiceMan

I have heard of that prgram aswell as otheres and i was wondering if ppl get upset if you use it? It does give you a distinct advantage. If most ppl dont have beef with it where could i get a copy from?

Chris

This should of been an easy fold.

the_main

Just downloaded pokertracker (www.pokertracker.com) and its amazing

i havent registered it but i most likely will - unless i can find a reg code somewhere

magithighs

ScottyZ wrote:

I folded. One of the players (I think it was the 3-bettor) had KK, and that won the pot unimproved.

I figured that was a fairly easy one, so here are the follow up questions that I had in mind. :cool:

It would have been a very difficult fold for me. I know I'm a dog, but I feel it's only to one player. The all-in smells of desparation, so I'm cool there. I figure the first guy is trying to islolate him and likely has big cards, and the third guy likely has a big pair to cap. So, I'm likely getting odds from two others which makes a call -- 3 to 1 plus really good implied odds. I fold because the all-in takes the action out of the hand. It's hard getting players to bet into a side pot, unless they've got you beat.

ScottyZ wrote:

1. What hands do you call with against the exact same opponents? Do you call with KK? How about QQ? Do you hate calling with AK (suited or not)? Do you fold speculative hands like hot potatoes?

As the button, I'd call with any pair down to presto, if there wasn't an all-in. I'd quickly fold AK, AQ as I'm pretty sure one of my opponents has my outs, and worse yet, another will have the big pair to cripple me. I'd also fold suited connectors and other drawing hands. The problem with the speculative hands is that if the flop hits perfectly, you don't get paid off. And, if I'm on a draw post-flop it becomes really expensive.

In the exact same situation, I'd only call with KK or AA and would be extremely tempted with QQ. But with the PFR knowlege, even QQ goes into the muck.

ScottyZ wrote:

2. What hands do you call with after the identical action when all of the opponents are unknown?

Wired pairs down to presto. Possibly AKs-ATs. Depending on the table, I'd also think about KJs, QJs, and JTs. But not on pokerstars -- too many smart players makes the payoff quite small. At Party, well the payoffs are incredible. This is of course only at the 5/10.

ScottyZ wrote:

3. Does the information that the original raiser is nearly all-in change your calling standards in either case? Remember that the other two opponents still have plenty of chips.

Absolutely. I'm playing implied odds. The all-in makes it hard to get into a post-flop betting war. I want that war, as I'm looking to have my set paid off nicely.

DJP

Coincidently Chris Moneymaker was on the button in the Commerce Classic, when he went all-in with JJ overtop the raise by the Iranian guy (Mashoud?) with 6d10d. They both lost to an A7o when Phil Gordon called and flopped an Ace.