great result in any case; now you have an almost free buy-in to the ME
Did you consider the W/H tax when you were chopping? If you win less than $5k (or $5k), you still get $5k. If you chop for $8k, you only get $5,600 since you have to pay $2,400 ($8k x 30%) in W/H tax. For an incremental $600, isn't it better to play it out and hope to finish in the top 4-5 and maybe take it down? just wondered if W/H tax ever is a consideration when looking at a chop?
In any case, you have some spending money now so enjoy the rest of your trip!
Ok I will try to answer this from macclaren airport on my BlackBerry.
Basically I was the one that requested the chop. The issue was the payout structure was top heavy but we did have 64000 left out of the 87000 in the prize pool.
First was 17k and second was 14k. I had about 480k at the time the blinds were at 20 and 40k with ante. Figure I had basically if I was coming in for a raise I was losing 25% of my stack and that would bring me into a push fold mode.
I did take into consideration the tax implications so I couldn't take more for the chop because I ended up getting all the cash without having to do the taxes.
We put all the players with no tax restrictions up in the top as ceasars does tax with holding for the top 5 spots.
So with that in mind I actually did better than if I had finished 5th because I would have lost 30% right away.
When I get back into Toronto I will edit this post and give all the details.
Thanks for the sweat everyone and it was a fun two day event.
I have an awesome trip report that includes monkey tilt, myself the crazy canuck who wouldn't shut up the entire tournament, and a few other wild characters.
I did take into consideration the tax implications so I couldn't take more for the chop because I ended up getting all the cash without having to do the taxes.
We put all the players with no tax restrictions up in the top as ceasars does tax with holding for the top 5 spots.
So with that in mind I actually did better than if I had finished 5th because I would have lost 30% right away.
That was a good play. So basically by taking the chop you made more than you would have if you came in anything less than 2nd or 3rd almost due to tax, right?
So basically the casino let you decide on the order of finish based on all the players agreeing to this order? didn't realize this was allowed. If the top finishers didn't have withholding tax issues, then it would make a lot of sense to give them the top prizes (even if they were the short stack) and try to reduce the most amount of taxes as possible. Not sure if they would allow you to increase the payout for the top couple of prizes and then reduce the remainder below $5k; I guess in theory you might be able to reduce the withholding tax to zero but getting paid might be the only issue.
Too bad you couldn't stick around for the main event.
Ok I will try to answer this from macclaren airport on my BlackBerry.
Basically I was the one that requested the chop. The issue was the payout structure was top heavy but we did have 64000 left out of the 87000 in the prize pool.
First was 17k and second was 14k. I had about 480k at the time the blinds were at 20 and 40k with ante. Figure I had basically if I was coming in for a raise I was losing 25% of my stack and that would bring me into a push fold mode.
I did take into consideration the tax implications so I couldn't take more for the chop because I ended up getting all the cash without having to do the taxes.
We put all the players with no tax restrictions up in the top as ceasars does tax with holding for the top 5 spots.
So with that in mind I actually did better than if I had finished 5th because I would have lost 30% right away.
When I get back into Toronto I will edit this post and give all the details.
Thanks for the sweat everyone and it was a fun two day event.
I have an awesome trip report that includes monkey tilt, myself the crazy canuck who wouldn't shut up the entire tournament, and a few other wild characters.
I chopped a Caesars nightly 3 handed where the casino allowed me to win 0 dollars, and the prize pool was divided among the other 2 Americans.
I then had to trust that the first place winner would pay me the cash, which was no issue.
don't the American players have to claim their winnings on their tax returns; so no immediate source deductions but they have to pay tax on the winnings indirectly? so if the American player is short stack, the casino doesn't care if they are given first prize money and no immediate withholding? nice to see some casinos try to accommodate the players.
Not sure. This was in 05 when the withholding limit was $600.
Im sure the flexibility hasnt changed. Im also sure most non professionals in the US find ways to not pay the tax. (IE offset with losses when doing taxes).
I've seen it a lot at both Las Vegas and Casino Brantford tournaments. The tournament directors and I would laugh at how scared the final table players are and are so eager for a chop. In blackmagicz's case, saving the 30% withholding tax probably made it a good chop for the #1 reason - gaining equity.
When the other seven players in a Las Vegas tournament I played last year were so scared of my chip lead and bubbling out, they proposed an 8-way chop where I was handed the championship, trophy and more than my fair share of equity. Anytime you have out-of-towners or other players more worried about variance than maximizing long-term profit, you can exploit them with a chop to your advantage.
Everest just announced to come now for the WSOP meeting so bye for now....
We had a 10 player chop at final table at the Borgata in AC last year. In fact there was not even a card dealt at final. Deal was arranged while seating was being arranged, chips being moved, etc.
Comments
With Avg. stacks @ 400K and blinds at 20-40K this makes sense as a good chop.
Unless your are a degen and want to play it out FTW. Its basically Bingo at this point.
Did you consider the W/H tax when you were chopping? If you win less than $5k (or $5k), you still get $5k. If you chop for $8k, you only get $5,600 since you have to pay $2,400 ($8k x 30%) in W/H tax. For an incremental $600, isn't it better to play it out and hope to finish in the top 4-5 and maybe take it down? just wondered if W/H tax ever is a consideration when looking at a chop?
In any case, you have some spending money now so enjoy the rest of your trip!
In that case yeah a good chop for the top and middle guys, I would not chop if I were the bottom guys though unless they are extremely short.
Basically I was the one that requested the chop. The issue was the payout structure was top heavy but we did have 64000 left out of the 87000 in the prize pool.
First was 17k and second was 14k. I had about 480k at the time the blinds were at 20 and 40k with ante. Figure I had basically if I was coming in for a raise I was losing 25% of my stack and that would bring me into a push fold mode.
I did take into consideration the tax implications so I couldn't take more for the chop because I ended up getting all the cash without having to do the taxes.
We put all the players with no tax restrictions up in the top as ceasars does tax with holding for the top 5 spots.
So with that in mind I actually did better than if I had finished 5th because I would have lost 30% right away.
When I get back into Toronto I will edit this post and give all the details.
Thanks for the sweat everyone and it was a fun two day event.
I have an awesome trip report that includes monkey tilt, myself the crazy canuck who wouldn't shut up the entire tournament, and a few other wild characters.
That was a good play. So basically by taking the chop you made more than you would have if you came in anything less than 2nd or 3rd almost due to tax, right?
Too bad you couldn't stick around for the main event.
Most casinos will allow this.
I chopped a Caesars nightly 3 handed where the casino allowed me to win 0 dollars, and the prize pool was divided among the other 2 Americans.
I then had to trust that the first place winner would pay me the cash, which was no issue.
Well done, Looking forward to the trip report!
don't the American players have to claim their winnings on their tax returns; so no immediate source deductions but they have to pay tax on the winnings indirectly? so if the American player is short stack, the casino doesn't care if they are given first prize money and no immediate withholding? nice to see some casinos try to accommodate the players.
Im sure the flexibility hasnt changed. Im also sure most non professionals in the US find ways to not pay the tax. (IE offset with losses when doing taxes).
When the other seven players in a Las Vegas tournament I played last year were so scared of my chip lead and bubbling out, they proposed an 8-way chop where I was handed the championship, trophy and more than my fair share of equity. Anytime you have out-of-towners or other players more worried about variance than maximizing long-term profit, you can exploit them with a chop to your advantage.
Everest just announced to come now for the WSOP meeting so bye for now....
Never heard of an 8 player chop
In 06 I was playing a tounament at Ceasars and there was a 27 way chop. I was part of another tournament playing at the same time.