AK Out of Position... flop, K32
How would you play this:
PokerStars Game #29197499673: Tournament #170645294, $20.00+$0.80 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/06/10 0:56:33 ET
Table '170645294 1' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: closemaster (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: lapa41 (1180 in chips)
Seat 3: rex0117 (1345 in chips)
Seat 4: Ds Denny (1970 in chips)
Seat 5: Sharkbite99 (1590 in chips)
Seat 6: tigertrap (1480 in chips)
Seat 7: _Kymia_ (1510 in chips)
Seat 8: tonytu (1455 in chips)
Seat 9: vegasbound24 (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 10: Moonblade555 (1500 in chips)
vegasbound24: posts small blind 15
Moonblade555: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to closemaster [Ac Kc]
closemaster: raises 60 to 90
lapa41: folds
rex0117: folds
Ds Denny: calls 90
Sharkbite99: folds
tigertrap: calls 90
_Kymia_: folds
tonytu: folds
vegasbound24: folds
Moonblade555: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kd 2d 3h]
PokerStars Game #29197499673: Tournament #170645294, $20.00+$0.80 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/06/10 0:56:33 ET
Table '170645294 1' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: closemaster (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: lapa41 (1180 in chips)
Seat 3: rex0117 (1345 in chips)
Seat 4: Ds Denny (1970 in chips)
Seat 5: Sharkbite99 (1590 in chips)
Seat 6: tigertrap (1480 in chips)
Seat 7: _Kymia_ (1510 in chips)
Seat 8: tonytu (1455 in chips)
Seat 9: vegasbound24 (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 10: Moonblade555 (1500 in chips)
vegasbound24: posts small blind 15
Moonblade555: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to closemaster [Ac Kc]
closemaster: raises 60 to 90
lapa41: folds
rex0117: folds
Ds Denny: calls 90
Sharkbite99: folds
tigertrap: calls 90
_Kymia_: folds
tonytu: folds
vegasbound24: folds
Moonblade555: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kd 2d 3h]
Comments
1. C-bet as posted above. What that does is tells villian if he is "smart" that you don't have a king and you are barrelling with air. That board is so dry so the question one asks themselves is "why wouldn't he want me to catch up"
2. Check flop bet turn on bad players, hopefully the turn card brings some sort of draw for their hand (or maybe makes 1 pair for them etc) and it allows you to get extra value.
how would you play this differently in a cash game when you get a lot of action (with position or out of position)? if you come out raising on the flop and get a lot of action, what's your thought process?
closemaster: checks
Ds Denny: bets 120
tigertrap: folds
closemaster: raises 240 to 360
Ds Denny: raises 240 to 600 - Should have folded here, but figured he could be doing the same play with so many hands (ie. AK, Flush Draw, etc.)
closemaster: raises 810 to 1410 and is all-in
Ds Denny: calls 810
vegasbound24 has returned
*** TURN *** [Kd 2d 3h] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [Kd 2d 3h Jd] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
closemaster: shows [Ac Kc] (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
Ds Denny: shows [As Ad] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
Ds Denny collected 3135 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3135 | Rake 0
Board [Kd 2d 3h Jd 2c]
Seat 1: closemaster showed [Ac Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Deuces
Seat 2: lapa41 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: rex0117 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Ds Denny showed [As Ad] and won (3135) with two pair, Aces and Deuces
Seat 5: Sharkbite99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: tigertrap folded on the Flop
Seat 7: _Kymia_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tonytu (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: vegasbound24 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 10: Moonblade555 (big blind) folded before Flop
The thing is if I did c-bet I think I was gonna get in trouble also and still would have been tough to get away from, but it is possible.
This is a really tough hand to get away from especially in these sit and goes. Like you said if you have no history with this villian his range can be so wide. I think I get stacked here too. There will be too many times where if you fold in this spot you will be giving up your hand to flush draws and KQ (especially if you lead out)
With a cash game scenario its a little different. I look at my image and the image of others who are calling.
Definitely with AK out of position I look to isolate and I am looking to hit my K or A on the flop. Most times in a cash game if I miss the board after I do my isolation raise and I have a very LAGGY player I will throw out a quick feeler and then shut down on turn and river as if I get 1 bet called (especially in the games I frequent, I know villian has caught a piece and will not fold for any bet on the turn-->which works good when I hit my A or K on the turn cause I end up stacking people)
If there are more than 2-3 people in the pot with me after I have punched out a raise preflop I tend to give up on the pot if there is action on the flop, especially with this board because I tend to think 33 or 22 is out there as they are set mining and they will isolate my range to top pair (providing this is my regular cash game I play in).
In a cash game I don't think 1 pair is strong enough to throw my stack in with multiple callers because most people will not be willing to throw in large amounts of $$$ with just air, especially with other people to act behind them etc.
EG....5/10NL cash game
8 handed
Effective stacks 1000
I am in SB with AK, 4 people have limped, button raises to 50 (standard position raise from button). I will re-raise to 200 to push out the limpers and see if they actually have a hand in the bush so to speak.
Now if I get 2-3 callers right away I can isolate ranges based on previous histories or based on their play in the session. Most times people will be limp calling KQ, 22-77,88 and sometimes even A10-AQ. The rest of the hands we would have seen a raise before this point.
Now the board comes K23
I lead out 350 into the pot (it is now 600) leaving me 450 behind. Now depending on how many people flat my bet here I will evaluate if I lead the turn. In this situation with this flop if someone flat calls 200 with 22 or 33 I am most likely to stack off to them and ship them my 1000. It is one of those hands where the board is so dry that if someone can set mine for such a high price I am willing to pay them off.
Most times on this board you will get re-raised with KQ or some sort of draw where I will snap call and hope my pair holds.
Like I said AA in a cash game will most likely try to re-isolate me (if they limped before my initial raise) and I will evaluate who I am playing against and what they believe my range is and most likely lay down AK to a 3-bet. I know I am up against 10s+ and I can pick a better spot. Now this is also based on a heads up situation not a multiway pot where there is a bunch of dead money after 2-3 people flat my 200 and then someone shoves.
+1. IMO, if you fold here it is more of a leak than getting it AI.
Don't get result oriented.
I also agree that I don't get stacked in $ game.
Mark
I prefer re-raising preflop. Here in the second level of the SnG, you have a UTG raiser when you have a premium hand. You want to get as much money into the pot as possible...
I hated this AA play, especially with more than half the table behind you. Also since there's 10 players, was this a DoN?
Mark
Yes, it was a DoN
Mark
Thanks for the detailed response; I usually play AK a lot less aggressively. To me, its needs to improve before it has much value. I definitely would not re-raise to 20BB after a 5BB raise. I like to see the flop and then decide where I stand. If I am the first to act, I will usually raise AK 70% of the time and just call the other 30% (more raising with AK suited).
In your example, if you miss the flop completely, what kind of feeler bet are you making? with the 350 bet (when you hit), you are really committed to this hand no matter the outcome. If the feeler bet is another $200, you have risked 40% of your stack, out of position, with A high.
For most games I play to knock anyone out of a pot you have to put in a sizable bet so 20BB is not uncommon in games I play, some people even may shove preflop just to take down the pot right there.
With regards to missing the flop it is really read dependant on who essentially has come into the pot with me and what kind of range they give me when the flop hits. Sometimes I may check the flop OOP heads up and then stab at the turn hoping that the villian thinks I have a monster and I don't mind him/her trying to catch up. Usually I will only barrel with certain board textures (basically paint) because my image in games I play is one of very tight and aggressive so if the board comes 682 they know I have not hit any piece of that and will call me down very light (I will 100% barrell at those flops with an over pair, but that is a separate discussion)
As noted if I do hit I am essentially committing myself to the pot, I have evaluated the action and as pointed out earlier I am most likely way ahead and people need to draw to catch up. I don't mind committing myself to pots that I know I have played well and if someone gets lucky so beat it, but I am looking at the long term profitability of my play.
One has to remember as well there are a lot of variables that go into this type of play and really you have to develop a good image to be able to make these moves. I also have to give up a lot of hands as well where I could peel for a card on the turn but I fold to give myself the image of the "nuthugger" which benefits me when I c-bet flops that potentially could have hit my range even though I missed totally.