Brantford 10/20 Hand
I tried playing 10/20 for the first time this weekend, and this big pot came up.
I had been playing for only about 15 minutes. Lots of table talk that the game is wild, and from what I have seen it is loose and fairly wild, but not through the roof wild. Plenty of raising, but not much re-raising pre-flop. Lots of people calling 1 or 2 bets cold pre-flop.
I have 55 3rd UTG. One caller ahead of me, and I also call. 2 more callers, player in LP raises, SB folds, BB and the rest of the limpers including me call.
6 players, 12.5 small bets.
Flop: J53 all diamonds
BB bets, first limper calls. I raise. MP limper re-raises, 2 fold (including the PF raiser), BB caps it. Original flop limper folds, I call, MP calls.
3 players, 12.75 big bets.
Turn: T not a diamond
BB bets, I call, MP raises, BB re-raises, I call 2 cold, MP just calls.
3 players, 21.75 big bets.
River: 9 not a diamond
BB bets. (22.75 big bets)
Raise, call or fold?
ScottyZ
I had been playing for only about 15 minutes. Lots of table talk that the game is wild, and from what I have seen it is loose and fairly wild, but not through the roof wild. Plenty of raising, but not much re-raising pre-flop. Lots of people calling 1 or 2 bets cold pre-flop.
I have 55 3rd UTG. One caller ahead of me, and I also call. 2 more callers, player in LP raises, SB folds, BB and the rest of the limpers including me call.
6 players, 12.5 small bets.
Flop: J53 all diamonds
BB bets, first limper calls. I raise. MP limper re-raises, 2 fold (including the PF raiser), BB caps it. Original flop limper folds, I call, MP calls.
3 players, 12.75 big bets.
Turn: T not a diamond
BB bets, I call, MP raises, BB re-raises, I call 2 cold, MP just calls.
3 players, 21.75 big bets.
River: 9 not a diamond
BB bets. (22.75 big bets)
Raise, call or fold?
ScottyZ
Comments
No hands that you can beat should call you if you raise... BB is representing a flopped flush, and MP has maybe JT? You may very well have the best hand, but if you raise the river one of two things will happen: you'll either win a little more (MP may fold, and the BB may just call) or lose a lot more (it may be capped by the time it gets back to you). The board didn't pair, so why put it into overdrive here? I think you played the hand well, and I think a call is your best move on the river.
Regards,
all_aces
What table where you at, Scotty? I played the 10/20 on Friday night, table 4.
I wasn't playing on Friday night. Played on Friday (Table 1), but I left around 5:00pm. This particular hand was actually from Saturday afternoon (Table 2).
ScottyZ
I would have to say that MP could be Asian? It's a typical play at Cdn. casinos. Limp & Trap, as they usually get paid off by someone who doesn't spot the play. So, I would put MP on a set of Jacks, or a flopped flush with AK. But the BB is screaming that he has aces with the backdoor flush draw, so I'd have to put MP on the set of jacks, and BB on wired red aces.
Maybe I'm too weak, but I'd be thinking seriously of folding at the turn when the BB bet. I really don't like being the Monkey in the middle. Given that I can't stand being in the middle, and that I likely can't fold Presto -- after all it is presto, I think raising the turn is the only option. Facing a re-raise, well I think I'd give up on Presto.
Not in the heat of the moment -- I say fold when the BB bets the turn.
(Note, on a side note I tried 10/20 on Pokerstars last night (first time at that limit on stars) and had a losing session -- not bad, but losing).
As for Scotty folding his set, I don't think he can do that on the turn... there are enough bets in there to wait and see if the board pairs on the river. I understand your concerns that he may be drawing almost dead (possibly to the remaining 5 in the deck) but with this kind of board, against one or two aggressive opponents, there are a lot of hands (including many semi-bluffs) that he can beat.
If Scotty calls the river, MP raises, and the BB re-raises, I'd start to think about laying the set down, but probably not before then.
Regards,
all_aces
1. I've got nothing against folding this hand pre-flop. I'll usually play all pocket pairs from any position in a typical low-limit game, but start folding the smaller pairs if the game is tougher than usual.
2. Raising on the river is pretty much out of the question, mainly for the reasons all_aces has mentioned. I almost didn't even offer that as a choice. :cool: It's extremely unlikely I can push either player off of a bigger set given the huge pot. Not to mention that I can't even find a reason to put either player on JJ (or 99 or TT).
3. Folding for any number of bets didn't cross my mind on the turn since I think I have a live 10 out draw at that point, and the pot is big enough for that draw. I don't see any reason to raise the turn either. I can't raise for value with 2 opponents in and about a 3.5 to 1 draw.
4. I went into the tank for a few seconds on the river, partially to evaluate what my opponents could have, but mainly to let the opponents reflect on the fact that the other could have a higher flush. I ended up calling. The pot was well over $400, and the MP player just calling the 3rd turn bet suggests to me that he is *not* the one with the nut flush. As all_aces mentioned, I like calling the BB a lot less if there is a decent chance that the MP has the nuts (or would re-raise the river for some other reason).
The MP player ended up just calling with 8d 7d for the flopped flush, and the BB had a suited K-rag in diamonds for the 2nd nuts.
I mucked my hand, and the person beside me, who I know, asked what I had. I told her I had flopped a set, and she questioned my call on the river. I know her to be a solid player, and I can sort of see her point of view. I still think that calling here is okay though, since I need to win the pot only about 4% of the time to make the call correct because of the big pot.
I know it's *highly* likely for at least one flush to be out there, but there are also a few plausible (based on the action) hole card combinations my opponents could have where I win. For example, Ad 4x and 33. Or Jx Td and Kd Qx. In a loose-wild (though this was not too wild) game, the opponents could have even been overplaying strong draws, like the bare Ace or King of diamonds, or top pair plus a diamond.
These are all pretty much stretching the imagination, but I think I'd rather make a mistake for one bet than lose a big pot here trying to lay down even a moderate hand.
ScottyZ
Thanks for the tip. If i had more ambition right now, I'd probably be there in a second. Problem is that 5/10 is just too damn reliable, so it's easy to fall back to that limit. The 10/20 was pretty soft, and it took a few orbits for me to get used to the slowplaying of AQ, KQs, from players in early position. I suspect it's a defensive mechanism because many good players will ilsolate the early raisers with wired stuff, and then force them to fold. So I bled a few BBs and didn't get enough hands in to recoup the 10BBs I was stuck. My biggest issue was my patience meter was running low, as I figured out the weaknesses pretty quick, and needed some cards. As soon as I feel that impatience settling in, I know it's time to move down. So, I'm back at the 5/10 earning my bonus.
I know I would find it extremely difficult to fold the set, in the heat of the battle. The problem is that he's in the middle of two players, with one of them likely holding the goods -- either a made flush, or a set. What if the other player is not a total wacko and is just a LAG playing 53s and has two-pair. That would not be out of the question with BB playing. I just think there's too good of a chance of drawing dead, and not really having the outs you think you have.
The only way I go past the turn is by raising the turn. It's a pre-emptive raise designed to get the late guy to fold, and may buy me a free river.
And, once at the river, there's absolutely no way I'd fold.
You don't mention position -- does your view change with position. I love presto, but usually in MP>2 with at least one caller in an unraised pot. And, if there are a few limpers, a raise is in order -- you know building the pot to get the chasers when you hit the set.
Without question, the river is an abolsute must to call. At this point, it's just a small pay off, and it's a 21 to 1 call. Personally, I would advertise say I had JTs, i had to call. Or, I would make something up that would make me look like I was a sucker but not unreasonable holding. Then I would announce "can I get a waitress, I haven't had my double shot of Jack Daniels to help losen me up. I wish I wasn't so tight in these games...". Ok, now you'll know how to spot me when I'm in Brantford.
I'm not sure why you would rule out wired Jacks, or the BB having 53, or J3. A good player in the BB could call that pre-flop raise with Jacks and all those limpers. Or a crappy player would call with J3, J5 or 53 suited. So, not all your outs could be clean. Why not raise this turn, if you're going to stay in? Yes, I understand the odds on the draw, but it's a pre-emptive raise. You have a hunch that the LP will raise this, so why not do it yourself. I've found that it's bought me a free river many times. It also helps build your image if you miss. And, it may cost you less -- two bets instead of three at the turn.
Absolute must call here. No question, chips go in. Ask for a reciept for the donation as you put the chips in. Oops, now you will really spot me at the tables. You're better than a 21 to 1 to win the pot, and just as important you get some inforomation on your opponent. Tuck it in your hat and order a Jack Daniels.
Holy crap! I played some 10/20 there while I was waiting for a 5/10 table. Played one orbit when I was dealt Pocket Kings. Four players in the pot, I rivered a flush (which I didn't need), and I dragged a 30BB pot. Shortly after, a 5/10 became availalbe and I moved down. I thought the bad play was an anomaly, but now I'm starting to rethink.
Although this play is often recommended, I don't much like raising with small pairs in late position (or the blinds) even with many limpers in before me. The pre-flop equity of the baby pairs is usually too small to raise for value, and the idea of "sticking people to the pot" with a raise seems like overkill to me.
Low-limit players are naturally pot stuck regardless of the pre-flop action. :cool:
(Yes, I know I keep referring to 10/20 as low-limit.)
I wasn't so convinced that the MP player would raise the turn. He may have just been raising up a strong draw (e.g. Ad) on the flop, which he would have missed on the turn. I also had no reason to think that my raising would slow down the BB (or MP, if he had a hand).
I guess I'm not 100% ruling out any of these hands on the flop, but there are enough other possible holdings that I am going to think that my full house is probably good if it gets there. It seems unlikely that the MP player would limp in with JJ after 2 limpers before him (but who knows... I've seen players who call pre-flop with AA 100% of the time "because they always get beat"). But as you mentioned, the BB could have a wide variety of hands.
ScottyZ
hey aces I saw you go on that rush from $900 to almost 2k in that 15/30 game, while I was playing in my 5/10 on Stars with magithighs. I was scoping out the game because a fellow 5/10er told me it was a really good game and I saw you sit down so I wanted to see how you did. That AA vs. kk vs. JJ hand you won was was huge.
As for the set of 5s I could never fold in that spot for 1 more bet in that game. That hand would be an automatic payoff for me if the guy flopped the flush as long as a 4th diamond didn't come it is very hard hand to get away from cheaply. I've been in a similar spot in the Brantford 10/20 game when I flopped the nut straight with A :diamond: J:diamond: and the board was 10 :spade: Q :spade: K :spade: and action was capped. As long as the board didn't pair and no :spade: came I decided I was going to stay in, they didn't and I ended up taking down a huge pot.
I had notes on 4 of the players in that game that I'd made previously. All of my notes proved to be correct.
As for your post Scotty, I agree with everything you say. One question: at what point do you consider a game to be 'mid-limit'? Personally, I consider 10/20 to 20/40 to be mid-limit, 30/60 to be 'upper mid-limit' and anything above that to be high-limit. But I think everyone has their own standards when it comes to what is high and what is low.
Regards,
all_aces
Okay, I would have to say that 10/20 is quite a bit different than 5/10. I'd definitely call the 5/10 game low-limit on the whole, but the 10/20 is probably more like something people would call mid-limit.
I found that the 10/20 had some characteristics of mid-limit (more pre-flop raising and more bluffing), and some of low-limit (some players calling down with very weak hands, the odd player with bizzare-o world starting hand standards).
So, 10/20 is probably the cut-off point, maybe playing like low-limit in some ways, and mid-limit in others.
And obviously "it depends" on the players.
I'll have to admit, I don't really know exactly what mid-limit is, so maybe you should just ignore my thoughts on it and go with all_aces' guidelines. :cool:
ScottyZ
Yeah I considered joining your game just to play against the guy on your right. But of course he went bust very quickly and was replaced with a decent player. I think mid limit is classified in most books as anywhere from 10/20 to 80/160.
BTW I love hearing all your thoughts on Low-Limit and Mid-Limit
Check out post #9 in this thread for the results.
I called on the river, and so did MP. BB won the hand with a K-high flush, and MP had a smaller flush.
ScottyZ